I don't remember it, either, but why do you types always bring it up and then go directly to the elements of which such a putative triumphalism was composed?

Perhaps it wasn't triumphalism. Perhaps it was Catholicism.

Well the easy answer to the above is the Traditional Latin Mass community where we have all those things. We do also have plenty of counter-cultural moral convictions publicly lived out through large families, grace before meals in restaurants, wearing the brown scapular (without pinning out of sight), modestly dressed women, etc, etc. Of course we don't do all this for the benefit of the public but I do think that demonstrating that we are living out there in "the world" yet still visibly separated from it does, over time, in a subtle way, cause some people to wonder what the attraction to this lifestyle might be.

I'm sure this observation has been made many times before - but I do find it amusing that the very people who several decades ago elevated the term "counter-cultural" to its current place of honor in our lexicon are the people who can least tolerate actual "counter-cultural" behavior.

Here is part of why Catholics are not zealous: part of zeal includes believing that the unchurched are in a woeful condition. But do we believe that anymore? At least 4 of our theological leaders have expressed the hope that hell could be empty not as in universalism which argues that hell certainly will end or be empty but our leaders have argued it as a hopeful possible due to our prayers etc since scripture says that God "wills all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". And this position filters into our weekly homilies that rarely address hell. However Aquinas noted thereon as to God willing all men to be saved that "the antecedent will of God does not always take place".
The current very hopeful leaders are John Paul II, Benedict, Karl Rahner and Von Balthazar.

Here is John Paul expressing his lack of certainty that Judas is in hell in "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" page 186: “ Even when Jesus says of Judas ‘it were better for that man had he never been born’ (Mt 26:24), his words to not allude for certain to eternal damnation."

For Augustine and Chrysostom, John Paul was mistaken and both men wrote sermons stating that Judas was in hell. Trent forbade judging such things when revelation was not present therefore Trent allowed for the judgement of Augustine and Chrysostom on Judas only because "revelation" (the Bible) was present. Christ in prayer to His Father said: "those whom thou gave to me I guarded and not one of them perished except the son of perdition". Christ said this by the way prior to Judas betraying Him which would make it then the "prophetic past" which Isaiah used when he spoke of the future Christ in the past tense "and we have seen him and there is no sightliness in him" (53:2).

In short, if Judas cannot get into hell in the minds of our leaders, how are we supposed to fear for the souls of our neighbors so as to see the Church as essential to their reaching heaven?

Here's a three step cycle for getting to where the Catholic Church might want to be:

1. Make belonging meaningful (identity, eschatology)

2. Reward belonging (fellowship, community, material support, charity)

3. Make belonging challenging (service, obligation, moral conduct, fidelity, obedience)

If you keep going with this cycle, you will end up with a strong church. If you reverse this cycle, you will end up mainstream protestant. Strip out the meaning, give 'rewards' to everyone regardless of their status, and then try to make it easy to join in an attempt to 'reach' everyone.

I thought first entry was denied for some reason so rewrote it in other words.

A number of years back, the Church in this diocese started the Renew program which was very nice. Don't know how much good it did in terms of developing zeal. I suggested to my spiritual director at the time that the Church needed to renew it shepards. If they had zeal, the sheep would follow. He didn't like what I said. I believe that's certainly true today. Too many of the shepards suffer from rationalism. As I heard one priest say a few years back, "I took the longest trip of my life, the trip from my head to my heart".

How do you renew the shepards?

Maybe, just maybe, John Paul II and Benedict XVI are leaving to God Above what is His Alone. I for one am perfectly content with the fact that these two Vicars of Christ have chosen not to Condemn and Judge if this or that particular soul is in Heaven or damned to hell. Instead they (Pope's) have said that all things are possible to God and have focused our attention on things of this world that we should be doing. We are members of Christ's Body here on earth. We are to carry on the Mission that Christ gave to the Apostles, expanding Christ's Kingdom here on earth and helping bring all souls to salvation. We are to be LOVE!

In the Love of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
Cory Fisher

A number of years back, the Church in this diocese started the Renew program which was very nice. Don't know how much good it did in terms of developing zeal. I suggested to my spiritual director at the time that the Church needed to renew it shepards. If they had zeal, the sheep would follow. He didn't like what I said. I believe that's certainly true today. Too many of the shepards suffer from rationalism. As I heard one priest say a few years back, "I took the longest trip of my life, the trip from my head to my heart".

How do you renew the shepards?

Great article. Note the devotion to Islam *because it asks much of devotees.* It commands much of devotees. And it promises that much is at stake.

I would love to see all the author's ideas implemented. I would add as well that some kind of regular devotion to the catechism and scripture would produce a similar devotion among Catholics as is seen among those other groups.

Bannon says: In short, if Judas cannot get into hell in the minds of our leaders, how are we supposed to fear for the souls of our neighbors so as to see the Church as essential to their reaching heaven?

Exactly correct. Moreover, if there is no hell, there is no justice or evil worthy of condemnation, plain and simple. These things are all intertwined.

But Jesus and the Church have in past ages taught unequivocally that people who embrace evil *deserve* hell, for justice demands that evil and its celebrants be condemned, rightly so.

If one cares at all about justice, one must care that people who willingly embrace evil must end up in hell.

But if one does not care about true justice, then it makes sense that evil people can do whatever evil they like and still be okay with God. Sure, that makes sense. But no informed faithful Catholic can have that view. God is love AND justice.

Hi everyone, just my two cents here...

I worked for a business owned by a JW and staffed mainly by JWs for several years. In the course of that job I met hundreds of JWs. What I can tell you about them in a nutshell is that these are people you don't want to emulate, and if the Catholic Church starts becoming more like the Witnesses, then you stand to lose what credibility you have left in the world. But, if you go ahead with the plan, here is the number one thing you'll need to do:

Stop thinking critically.

Education and self-reflection is your enemy. There's a reason why the JWs have no insitiutions of higher learning, unlike Catholic universities, Jesuit universities, etc. When you keep em' ignorant it makes them easier to control. You want Catholics to all be on the same page like the JWs are? Jealous of the JWs unfailing dedication and consistency? Then shut down all the universities and convert them into printing presses for cheap propaganda pamphlets like the JWs.

Seriously, don't do it, guys. From my experience working with them, and even though I have made some good JW friends, the lot of them are proudly ignorant people, and they lie, cheat, and steal with the best of them, and excuse it every time because they think they're God's One True Chosen People. You wanna be like that? Go ahead.

Patricio
I believe the author is only referring to their outer practice of going out to reach others in some way about the Faith. In itself, preaching is something God wants of all Catholic people in accord with their capabilities which can vary greatly. That is the reason the Holy Spirit descended on Pentecost so that people would be emboldened to go out to others. Nowadays, so many Catholics spend a great deal of their little free time after the stress of work trying to figure out how to evangelize simply the fallen away members of their own family that the project of approaching strangers seems utopian. However, if one likes certain statements by the saints or from the Bible and then commented on by saints etc., one can print up those quotes and send them through the mail or pass them out on the street in one's town and I've done both and am about to return to the street thing for part of Christmas day. I would not like ringing peoples' door bells though but apparently in some parts of the country, it is more appropo and natural.

well...I would think that the Church would stand to benefit greatly if for that one day a week (Sunday) Catholics could forego going to supermarkets and other places of business and commerce, and instead "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy".
It would certainly be countercultural to do so, and right off it would be transcendental (a material gain being traded off for a spiritual one); then by keeping Sunday holy, there would be time for devotions, processions, and societies--time for God. A rule like 'no shopping on Sundays' could come to identify us as Catholics every bit as much as 'no meat on Fridays'. So while we may learn from the Jehovah's Witnesses about dressing appropriately for Sundays, we can be an example to them in keeping Sundays holy:-)

Patricio could not be more right. The LAST thing Catholics want to emulate are JWs or any brand of fundamentalists for that matter. My personal experience with "born-again" types of co-workers is that, if I turned my back on them, I was sorry. Those folks lied like rugs at all levels of the company. Because they were "saved," they acted entitled to get away with everything. Oh, they're passionate and motivated all right. They allow each other to get away with the lying and laugh about it like it's their little inside joke. That's were some of the "proudly ignorant" comes in. No, there's nothing about the small of mind JWs or fundamentalists that any Catholic should want to emulate.

Catholics do come to mass for the Eucharist. The problem is they have become lazy about it. Most dress like they are going to the park. The heart is not in it. Few people sing or even recite the prayers. Everyone is so distracted by what they are going to do after mass. Many have lost the awe and humbleness of receiving Our Lord and Savior. All of the poor catachism and homilies of past years is not an excuse. All adults have an obligation to further their understanding of their faith beyond grade school level. It is so easy today with the internet.
We just need to put some time into educating ourselves.

May be the first step is to pray more fervently for our pastors. They are the first link to allow zealous parishioners to share with fellow members.

The other problem comes from interpretation of Vatican II to be a bridge of faith into the world, without the world compromising our faith into something lifeless, lukewarm.

The internal problem in the American Catholic Church is the great lack of Christian brotherhood. Our parish communities are icebergs. This problem goes back to the clergy and a hostile, secular culture in place now for 50 years. Unfortunately natives and foreign born alike see the Church here accommodating the wealthy and powerful. How many times do good things happen with the poor and those at the bottom of the social ladder?

To rebuild the church, spirituality of St. Francis of Assisi would be a good start. Check out the Italian site, www.pacebenemondo.it and their 'messagio' box. You might not understand the Italian but you can see the great fraternity people have across Apulia, practically every town having atleast one or two fraternities that even meet weekly.

Great article and comments.I am going to forward them along with an article by Deacon Keith Fournier entitled "Bring Back The Tabernacle:A Call To Worship" to our local Bishop for his consideration.Keep up the good work.
God Bless
Ora Pro Me.

Comedian Lewis Black, an atheist who recently penned a book called "Me of Little Faith," was raised in at least some semblance of Jewish tradition. But in a radio interview he gave, he said he was fascinated by the Mass when he attended it, presumably with friends, as a kid back in pre-Vatican II days. "I can't understand why they ever did away with that," he said. Why indeed?

I remember what St Francis Asissi said about going out and preaching the Gospel to the peoples of the world, it went something like this, "Go out and teach the people about the Gospel and as a very last resort, use words"

There is a movement in Catholic Church geared at evangelizing other people by knocking on doors, giving Holy Communion to the sick, leading prayer meetings in care homes and hospitals, teaching CCD, teaching sacrament preparation classes, distributing Catholic literature, prayer booklets and rosaries in the marketplace (materials supplied by the Knights of Columbus), and personally engaging other people in discussing the Catholic faith.

It's called the Legion of Mary.

If you're with the Legion, you're expected to give at least two hours each week in SUBSTANTIAL service of the Blessed Mother by performing spiritual works of mercy. That's right - the spiritual works of mercy, not the corporal:

» Convert the sinner

» Instruct the ignorant

» Counsel the doubtful

» Comfort the sorrowful

» Bear wrongs patiently

» Forgive injuries

» Pray for the living and the dead

The Legion believes in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is expected that members attend the weekly meeting where they pray the Rosary and the Magnificat, report on their assignments, and listen to a mini-homily by the spiritual director.

When I was still with the Legion, I was amazed that those of us who knocked on doors were generally well received in neighborhoods where Mormons or JW's were not welcomed. Maybe because what we were "selling" is the real thing? Our secret: while one or two members of our team did the talking, the others were praying for them.

There are drawbacks in the Legion system. First off, you may not do the job unless it's assigned by the president of a presidium. Also, you may not do it alone - you always have to have one or two partners with you.

And it has to be a person-to-person kind of situation. In other words, having your own catechetical show at EWTN, like Dr. Ambosio's (without a live audience) is not good enough. Likewise, writing a book on catechetics (like Fr. Hardon's) does not count unless you also teach it to real live people.

And it wouldn't matter if you just happened to have single-handedly herded a group of violent gang members over to the confessional. It would have to have been assigned by the president and done with at least one other member. Spending hours in Eucharistic adoration praying for the souls in purgatory - or praying in front of an abortuary - counts only if it's assigned, and if there's one other member praying with you.

Another drawback is the fact (like it or not) that quite a number of members do not know enough of the Catholic faith to teach it to other people. Without a solid grounding on Magisterial teachings and the Bible, they can't even begin to engage in polite discussions with the Mormons or the JW's.

The Legion of Mary is especially effective in smaller towns and villages were people know one another and where the system of extended families still work. In the Philippines where I grew up, it is not uncommon for the Legion of Mary to get cohabiting couples marry in church with much encouragement from relatives, friends, and neighbors.

It's easier than that, really. Just copy the JW practice of telling the least zealous 80% that they are not JWs any more. Makes for a smaller, more highly motivated congregation. Problem solved.

Those who caution against imitating the methods of the Jehovah's Witnesses have an excellent point. I used the Witnesses as a convenient model for this column, but I don't mean for the comparison to go very far at all. I think Catholics should want to "be like JW's" only in their keen contra mundum sensibility. No further than that: I don't advocate shunning and other forms of illicit psychological pressure or cult-like tactics; neither do I favor disengagement from the world, and still less do I think we should be forming an intellectually backward body of believers.

My brother in law is a JW. Believe me, you do not want any part of that.

I couldn't agree more. You can spot a JW a mile away what with the suit and briefcase.

We used to have a recognizable identity years ago. If parents told more care with how they dressed when going to Mass and taught their children that it isn't tennis or 'club' attire that's appropriate it would certainly be a good start.

I was waiting for the abysmal reference to "change the music" or "have meaningful sermons" or worse, lets bring back liturgical dance. Why doe one worry about how to make the Catholic Church more outward pleasing to society. I tell everyone that wants to attend our services, "do so at your own risk.' We are the only church, well maybe not the only church, that a person off the street has no idea what their witnessing inside. Unless there is a primer, centered on the Eucharist, before hand, the attendee will leave and tell bad stories about what is going on inside. I often invite prospective folks to our services but not until after I completely explain the symbolism that they will witness. I frankly tell people that they are not going to be entertained, but you will learn to pray and to listen to the words and "feel" the presence of something important.

Todd---What are you doing shopping on Sunday and teaching your sons that it ok ! We used to have the things you list prior yo the Vat 2 debacle