November 20, 2009
 
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| Meeting Reverend John Hagee |
| by Deal W. Hudson |
| 3/31/08 |
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► Take a look at Deal W. Hudson's newest book, Onward, Christian Soldiers: The Growing Political Power of Catholics and Evangelicals in the United States.
Rev. John Hagee, the pastor of a San Antonio mega-church, has been a major Evangelical figure for many years. But since his endorsement of Sen. John McCain for president, the name Reverend Hagee has become synonymous with anti-Catholicism. A few days ago I met with Hagee and his wife, Diana, in New York City for a three-hour conversation.
The meeting came at the suggestion of a mutual friend who was concerned both for Hagee's reputation and the relations between Evangelicals and Catholics. My friend, a national religious leader himself, told me, "John Hagee is my friend, and he is a good man. Also, it would be a pity if a wedge was driven between conservative Catholics and Evangelicals on the eve of the 2008 election."
Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, is the man who first pointed out what he described as anti-Catholic elements in Hagee's writings and videotaped lectures. Donohue initially brought attention to Hagee in December, when Gov. Mike Huckabee announced that he would be preaching in Hagee's Cornerstone Church. The Hagee quotes Donohue collected were indeed disturbing. When Huckabee refused to cancel the speech or respond to Donohue's criticism, he was tainted by the issue of anti-Catholicism for the remainder of his candidacy.
The publicity surrounding the Hagee-Huckabee controversy made Senator McCain's enthusiastic embrace of Hagee's endorsement even more surprising. Donohue immediately admonished Senator McCain, just as he had Huckabee. I had also been critical of Huckabee's appearance at Hagee's church, and I joined Donohue in asking McCain to repudiate the anti-Catholicism of Hagee's writings.
The McCain campaign was slow to respond. Its first statement was weak, and its failure to satisfy Donohue was predictable. It was more than a week later when Senator McCain directly repudiated the anti-Catholicism attributed to Hagee, at which time Donohue announced "case closed."
The issue had only begun to die down when the furor over Sen. Barack Obama's pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, began to heat up. Comparisons were inevitable and Hagee was back in the headlines, with the likelihood that he would stay there through November. That was when I received the call asking me if I would meet with him.
Since I had been critical of Hagee myself, I thought it reasonable that I sit down with him and discuss the anti-Catholicism charge. As a young man I was also an Evangelical from Texas, and I knew I could find some common ground with him -- and maybe find out more about what appeared to be an open-and-shut case. (I called Donohue to tell him that a meeting had been proposed, and Bill said he appreciated my letting him know.)
Next, I contacted Hagee. He seemed genuinely hurt that he was being seen by the nation as anti-Catholic. He said, "Deal, how can people think I am anti-Catholic when my wife is an ex-Catholic, and a third of my congregation are former Catholics?" I bit my tongue. We really needed to talk; there were some things about Catholics he truly didn't understand.
When we met later, I told Hagee about "biting my tongue," and he looked surprised. I explained that Catholics don't like being reminded of all those who have left the Church. As he started to nod in agreement, his wife Diana said, "He's right, John." She would repeat that sentence several times during our long conversation, and each time her husband would acquiesce in agreement.
For example, she agreed when I told Hagee that his account of anti-Semitism seems aimed entirely at the Catholic Church. He explained that he had written extensively about the anti-Semitism of Martin Luther and other Protestants and had praised the statements of Pope John Paul II that were critical of anti-Semitism. When I asked him why so many of his examples were from the Catholic Church, he said his main source was the book The Anguish of the Jews by Rev. Edward Flannery, which he had bought on his first trip to Israel in 1978. (Father Flannery was first director of Catholic-Jewish relations at the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and a pioneer in Jewish-Christian relations.)
Hagee not only recognized why his account could look one-sided, but he also admitted that he knew little about the heroic efforts of many Catholics to defend the Jews, especially during World War II. I gave him a copy of the encyclical read from the pulpit of every Catholic Church in Germany in 1937, Mit Brennender Sorge, of Pius XI. I explained to him that the author was actually Eugenio Cardinal Pacelli, the future Pius XII, and how Jews welcomed his election because he was already known as their defender.
Rev. John Hagee is a powerful man. His ministry encompasses not only a congregation of over 19,000 but also a radio and television ministry on 160 television stations, 50 radio stations, and eight networks. His broadcasts are seen and heard in 99 million homes. He is one of the leading Evangelical supporters of Israel, and was leaving for the Holy Land with 1,000 people on the day after our meeting.
During our conversation Hagee never became defensive -- he seemed genuinely perplexed by the label he had acquired and wanted to understand what he was missing. There is not enough space here to relate the entire conversation. (I will be speaking to Hagee again and with his permission, will put more of our dialogue into print.) We thoroughly discussed not only his quotes concerning Catholic violence against Jews but also the "Great Whore" of the Book of Revelation. I told him that when I Googled "Great Whore" and Revelation, the first six hits were explicitly anti-Catholic Web sites. He then explained why, in his interpretation of the Book of Revelation, the "Great Whore" cannot refer to the Catholic Church: In Hagee's eschatology, the end times begin with the Rapture, when all those who are truly in Christ will be taken up to heaven. Hagee says, "Since both Catholics and Protestants are taken up to Heaven, how could the 'Great Whore' be the Catholic Church? The apostate church is left on earth during the seven years of tribulation -- that is the 'Great Whore.'"
I asked him, "Are you saying the Catholic Church cannot be the 'Great Whore' because the 'Great Whore' exists only during the period of tribulation?" Hagee answered, "Yes, anyone who is a real Christian, Catholic or Protestant, has been taken to heaven, only those without faith, including Catholics and Protestants, are left behind."
Hagee teaches that the tribulation is followed by the 1,000-year rule of Christ, who brings perfect peace. After 1,000 years, eternity begins and time is no more. All of this Hagee diagramed for me, at my request, on two small sheets of notebook paper.
He told me several personal stories, as well, about his relationship with Catholics over the years. This one, in particular, provides a starting point for seeing another side of the man who has now become a symbol of anti-Catholicism:
The Ursuline Sisters founded the Ursuline Academy in San Antonio in 1851 -- it was the first girls' school in the city, originally located on the San Antonio River before moving to the northwest part of the city in 1965. By the early 1990s there were too few sisters, and those too old to run the Academy. The eight remaining sisters ranged in age from 63 to 94.
Consequently, they put their 40 acres of prime real estate and 90,000 square feet of buildings up for sale. The sisters tried to make a deal with the archdiocese, but it fell through several times. Having heard that Hagee was looking for property to build a school, the sisters called him. Hagee went to see the school and was met by a sister who had come from the Vatican to oversee the sale. "It was in perfect condition, there wasn't a hairline crack," he told me.
"I was shocked when I was told the price and asked why it was so low." Hagee was then told that the delay in selling the property had meant the sisters had to draw on their retirement accounts to live. Hagee then said, "I want to buy this school by the close of business tomorrow."
Hagee, the sisters, and their attorneys met the next morning. The Ursulines' attorney said, "Shall we tell Reverend Hagee the real problem?" At that point Hagee thought the whole deal would go down the drain because of some monstrous problem he hadn't been informed of. The attorney for the sisters explained that the archdiocese had expected them to move out of the convent immediately after it was sold and asked what Hagee wanted the sisters to do.
"My plan would be to give them a five year lease to the convent, and I will charge them ten dollars a year. We will pay all utilities and up-keep." Hagee then took a 50-dollar bill from his pocket and paid the lease himself. One sister looked at the attorney and said, "Let's get this thing done."
The following Sunday, Hagee sent his church bus to the Ursuline convent, picked up the sisters, brought them to his church, and seated them in the front row for both services (5,000 attend each service). "I thanked them publicly for their lives of sacrifice and devotion to Jesus Christ. The congregation gave them standing ovations because the campus we bought was the fruit of their labor, a testimonial of their commitment to Christ."
The Ursuline sisters stayed in the convent for twelve years, free of any cost. "We were glad to bear the cost to express our appreciation for what they had done for the Kingdom of God." During that time, those sisters who were able walked around the campus and through the halls of Cornerstone Christian School.
"Our children hugged them; they would reach out and grab them by the hands. They were very precious to us for what they had done with their whole lives which had been invested in building this wonderful school. We were glad to honor them as long as they walked on this earth."
The intent of my meeting with John Hagee was to help him understand why he was considered anti-Catholic. He listened and agreed with much I had to say. In turn, I listened to him explain how he thought he was being misunderstood. We agreed to meet again after his trip to Israel, to continue our conversation about anti-Semitism in the Catholic Church and his interpretation of the Book of Revelation.
Until then, I look forward to learning more about this man who took such good care of the Ursuline Sisters of San Antonio.
Deal W. Hudson is the director of InsideCatholic.com and the author of Onward, Christian Soldiers: The Growing Political Power of Catholics and Evangelicals in the United States (Simon and Schuster, March 2008). Readers have left 55 comments. ...these sorts of misunderstandings and beliefs are all too common. I suppose the fact that Protestantism is a heresy is the elephant in the room, but that's for a different article/blog/whatever. Mr. Hagee doesn't understand why people think he is anti-Catholic. I suppose one could think he was, with all the "Whore of Babylon" nonsense floating around over the years. If that phrase left his mouth, the knee jerk reaction would be to think he was talking about us. I look forward to your next article on the reverend, I make it a point not to assume things about people. I also don't even fault him for believing we're the Whore of Babylon either (if indeed he does believe that). Martin Luther, John Calvin and the early "Reformers" certainly thought that way about the Church...its the nature of "Reformation" history to view the Church as this bloated corrupt thing that the Reformers had to dispense with to get us all back to God, which the Church "took people away from." Written by David W. Deal, I found your meeting with Hagee quite interesting. I am always intrigued by peeling back the headlines and getting to the "rest of the story." Perhaps Hagee will be a little more understanding of the Catholic perspective after you continue to talk with him and explain to him how most of us think about such things. In any event i applaud your willingness to meet with him and look forward to the Holy Spirit working through you to provide him with a better understanding of the church.  Written by John Jakubczyk Dear Deal Well done! I met John Hagee in the 1980's. As you know, I have spent MUCH of my life building alliances with other Christians on the pro-life issues. I am glad that you met with him and not surprised at the mindset which you found. His is an ignorance of the Catholic faith, Catholic history and how faithful Catholics truly live their faith which is evident in some of his colleagues in the Protestant "evangelical" and "charismatic" world. Fortunately, it is fading. However that is expedited precisely when we who are Catholic Christians use the opportunities presented to us to educate fellow Christians, even those who get "under our skin". You are to be commended for your efforts particular a small segment of it. Deacon Keith Fournier Written by Deacon Keith Fournier Keith, thanks should really go to my friend who arranged the meeting. I found Rev. and Mrs. Hagee very congenial and very good company. Of course, it did take me back to years as a Texas Baptist, and gave me the opportunity to recall the many good people who met and worked with in those days. Mrs. Hagee, by the way, who is an ex-Catholic asked me why I converted. Before I could finish the sentence both she and her husband were nodding in agreement -- they both recognized the issue that eventually pushed me away from Evangelicalism. Written by Deal Hudson Reverend Hagee's odd brand of Christianity is reflected not only by his attacks on the Catholic Church, but his position on Israel, including his perpetual fund drives for Israel. First, Israel is hardly a poor country. The CIA World Factbook currently lists Israel's per capita GDP as over $28,000, in the top 20% worldwide, and ahead of such countries as New Zealand, South Korea, and Portugal. Additionally, whatever dollars he raises for Israel are dwarfed by the approximately $2.5 billion in foreign aid which the US provides each year to Israel (I believe it is the largest Congressional earmark in the federal budget). A truly Christian approach would be to recognize that what the Israelis need is not fund drives, but the gospel of Christ preached to them. Written by Gary Taphorn Dear Deal, This is a huge opportunity that you've been called to do - dialogue towards truth. Hagee's wife and those of his Congregation call themselves "ex-Catholics" really don't understand what a shameful identity that is for themselves. I'm glad you bit your tongue. It is as if they were plucked too soon when they should have been left on the vine to seek the ripening effects of the sun. It's a good thing they are people and not grapes; they can still be brought back to truth and fullness of faith. Good luck in bringing truth to this man. I'll pray for you both that the Spirit of truth will fill his heart and your speech while you dialogue. The conversation will be a long one. Written by Summer Golf Girl My purpose in talking to the Hagees is not to convert them to Catholicism -- It is simply to fill in the spaces in their knowledge of the Catholic Church, especially in regard to anti-Semitism. Rev. Hagee had read an authoritative book on Catholic anti-Semitism but he had not read the authoritative books, such as those of Ron Rychlak, on Catholic defense of the Jews. In fact my attitude toward conversion has completely changed since my days as an Evangelical. The Church converts, I don't. I try to show people the Church, as accurately as possible. I don't need to do anything else. Written by Deal Hudson Dear Deal, What teacher of the end times do I follow? I prefer to follow and give the final nod to Jesus and his statement about the end times. That being the sign of Noah. Hagee's interpretation of the end times is "of man" and a relatively recent constructed theory, a theory only, developed by smarty-pants heretics who've profited handsomely. Their interpration seems like an all too slickly polished and marketed hunt for fortune telling, divination and sorcery. Lucrative indeed. Revelation revealed the High Priest, Prophet and King, the Mass and the Eucharist. Where God touches man while mankind reaches back to God by the way God asked, "Do this in memory of me." A banquet of communion at the marriage supper of the Lamb. What more could you want? Written by Summer Golf Girl Dear Deal, Did I mention the "conversion" word? That would be too much to hope for. I don't envy any protestant preacher that very difficult task. Light and truth is all I'm praying for. Deal, I'm glad you are "on the case." Written by Summer Golf Girl I'm no theological expert on the Book of Revelation. I know there will be an end of history, a final judgment, and an eternity with heaven and hell. Written by Deal Hudson I really WOULD pray for the conversion of John Hagee---He would be an incredible mouthpiece and has the same moral values and basic beliefs of Christianity. I have written to him and expressed hurt at his anit Catholic ramblings. I am glad to know that they seem to stem from sheer ignorance rahter than hostility. Let us pray for this man, and that there be many more occasions for dialogue. Let us pray for his wife, an ex Catholic, that she will be infused with the Holy Spirit of TRUTH! Let us aks Our Lady to intercede! Written by marsha anne Please read the following book that will explain why so much of this 'Rapture' and 'end times' nausea has become almost a dogma to so many Catholics: Will Catholics Be Left Behind? A Catholic Critique of the Rapture and Today's Prophecy Preachers ISBN: 9780898709506 Author: Carl E. Olson Written by Steve D Hi Deal - what was the issue that pushed you away from Evangelicalism? Thanks Written by NorthoftheBorder Deal, Hagee played you for a fool. Of course he knows he is anti-Catholic. It is the nature of protestant heresy to be anti-Catholic. Why do we continue to have these worthless warm and fuzzy discussions with heretics? Why don't we focus on converting them instead of telling them how the hurt our feelings?! Written by Adam Myers I am not fully convinced. I would ask how a third of his congregation came from us. That is normally a sign that we have been targeted. I would be interested to see the whole conversation. I guess I have been burned by evangelicals before and am not very trusting. Written by Fr. J Dear Deal, Thank You for sharing this article! And Thank You for putting forth the effort to try and find the truth of the matter. I was a back-slidden Catholic for many years when I married a Protestant and began attending the church she was raised in. As an engineer I began doing contract work for a major evangelist tv network and became aquainted with Rev. Hagee. He was a favorite of mine, a real "fire and brimstone" preacher that i enjoyed watching. I don't really remember him ever making any anti-catholic remarks, but, i never read any of his books either. Several years ago i came home to the Catholic Church and it has been many years since i watched Mr. Hagee preach. When i heard about his anti-Catholic remarks, i was hoping it was just media hype. The story of the convent is the Hagee i remember. But, he has written what he did in his book, it IS there in black & white......I will pray for him. Written by nerddad Dear Mr. Hudson: I am a cradle catholic but now and then I used to watch Rev. Hagee preach, because protestants seem to know the bible so much better than us catholics. I found some discrepancies in what he believes, for example, Rev. Hagee said that when Our Lord Jesus said to St. Peter, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail. He denied that these words meant the foundation of the catholic church. He also does not believe in purgetory, he backs these remarks up with the words Our Lord said to the thief on the cross, 'today you will be with me in paradise'. I can't imagin any of us sinners going straight to heaven without further purification. But what really hurt me to the core is the fact that more then half of his congregation are former catholics. Is that information supposed to make us feel good? I can't think of any reason why anyone would leave the catholic church. Needless to say, I haven't listened to Rev. Hagee's sermons for some time. Written by Klara Colbert in light of the above comments, I recommend every one to check out "Catholics Come Home" and the advertising pieces that tell the story of who we are as Catholics. Deal, you should interview Tom and do a feature on his work. Written by John Jakubczyk Deal: What a beautiful story about Christian love and authentic ecueminism. I really enjoyed your story about the religious sisters who were helped by Rev. Hagee. I just hope that you can help other Protestants, especially those whose congregations are filled with ex-Catholics, just why we Catholics find that so offensive. DJP Written by DJP Thanks for the conversation. I've seen several of Mr. Hagee's TV shows, and they are a dismal parade of hate and a display of mean spirit. I'm glad to see his views are more nuanced than those programs, but I've never seen him discuss Christian love or Christian responsibility to a decent society. It is all about war, destruction, and hatred. Written by Max Edison I found this quite intriguing and well done. I congratulate your efforts to clarify Rev. Hagee's words from the past and his actions. This meets the road to try and get people to clarify their differences. Thank you. Written by John Keenan Deal, Thank you for reaching out to Hagee, and for an excellent article. It’s nice to know that Hagee is willing to listen to a Catholic perspective on his comments. Hopefully this will have an effect on how he comments about Catholicism in the future. Having moved to the south 15 years ago, I've learned that ours is a faith which most fundamentalists have no interest in understanding or discussing rationally, and often dismiss as a cult. So any time I see someone with Hagee's stature and reputation among Protestants willing to sit down and talk Catholicism with a Catholic, I can't help but be at least slightly encouraged. I can't say I'm surprised about him not realizing the insensitivity of his 'ex-Catholic' comments. Many Protestants I know do not associate themselves to a denomination as to a particular church of their liking. For them, it is not monumental to leave a Baptist church for a Pentecostal Church. They don't understand that when a person leaves the Catholic Church, he is leaving behind Holy Mother Church, not just the church on the corner. With God’s blessings, your work with will bear fruit. Thanks for a great article, and all your work on this. Written by Francis Wippel Although I appreciate the discussion you had with the Rev. Hagee, Mr. Hudson, I'm still not convinced that he doesn't harbour some anti-Catholic views. As someone with family members who are now Evangelical's, I can tell you that they don't really even recognize these tendencies. They are simply not attuned to them. At any rate, I'm glad you had a chance to talk to the Rev. and hope that now that he's been made aware of Catholic concerns, he'll be much more careful in his statements. Written by Kim Northoftheborder, I wrote an entire book on conversion called "An American Conversion," but what I said to the Hagees was this: "When I was a Southern Baptist I experienced a lack of appreciation, even hostility, toward my desire to study philosophy, the arts, music, novels, all of the best that culture had to offer." At that point they cut me off in agreement and started telling me their own stories about similar experiences. Written by Deal Hudson We pray as Christians for America and yet we dig our heels into divisions that many of us were born into and many regions of our nation were schooled in..... only the HOLY SPIRIT could arrange a dialogue that could perhaps open up the real critical discussion that holds our country back more than anything else------ the divisions in the Body of Christ.... God is bigger than our unbeatable arguments... God is not intimidated by the most educated among us.... because most of us simply live our lives considering how this or that affects me and my family we miss the fact that GOD is moving and working to fufill HIS PLAN of REDEMPTION ON TIME.... I am a lifelong Catholic, who loves JESUS, my Catholic Church and rely on the sacramental life to support me in my life.... but it was in a Pentecostal Church that I was baptized in the HOLY SPIRIT, receiving the gift of tongues.... a manifestation that Peter looked for as affirmation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This gift of the Holy Spirit is a tremendous spiritual gift.... and although I first experienced healing through a Priest, Fr. Hampsch years ago, it was in An Assemblies of God Church that I learned that JESUS heals today and would do so through me... not just through a Priest.... I learned about the sweet Faith and Love of the WORD in the Baptist Church and the Sweet Dedication of METHODISTS to try and provide practical education and community support to Live THE LIFE and Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren and even Benny Hinn have been used by the HOLY SPIRIT to nourish HIS BODY when a gap existed for whatever the reasons..... God's Word will not return to HIM unfufilled and HE is not threatened by the fact that I am nourished by them all..... for HE knows my heart..... I AM SEEKING HIM..... But all in all I am Catholic..... I love my brothers and sisters in Christ; they teach me to value aspects of the FAITH that are not emphasized currently in my Catholic Church.... We have an opportunity and I admire you so much DEAL.... to join in the HEART of GOD -- RESTORATION ...that they may be ONE Father as YOU and I are ONE!!! Consider the fact that you are in the CATHOLIC CHURCH by Grace and it doesn't make you more RIGHT for only GOD knows who is RIGHT..... I would be more worried about who of us is living JESUS authentically in the WORLD. Let us start by praying for one another.... that HE would teach us how HE INTENDS to bring UNION from what appears to us to be irreconcilable differences! Love you all, in JESUS! Written by Theresa Okay--I don't understand why there is no mention in the article or the posts that Hagee questions whether Jesus is in fact the Messiah. What does it take to be labeled a heretic? The way I see it, before he is anti-Catholic, he is really anti-Christ(ian). Written by Mary I attended a Pentacostal church for many years and I can tell you that they do not believe that Catholics are saved and have even suggested that the Pope was the anti-Christ. Many gave testimonies about being delivered out of the darkness of the Catholic Church. I also wrote to Mr. Hagee and I was quite scathing in my rebuke. When he refers to the apostate church he insists on calling it the Roman Church. What are Catholics supposed to think? I recieved a kind letter back from a staff member assuring me that Mr. Hagee is not anti-Catholic. I told him that Mr. Hagee needs to make an apology if his remarks are being mis-understood and that he needs to make it clear in his end time teachings that he is not reffering to the Catholic Church. They said they would take it under consideration. He seems to be confused on this issue. A man in his position should not be confused about such things. I know who the author of confusion is. He has set himself up as a teacher and deserves to be on the hot seat here. For as James says," He will recieve the greater condemnation." Written by Josh We will continue to pray for Hagee and all those who use their pulpit for their own use and misuse, as well as for all those who have rejected and abandoned the most beautiful gift and legacy, the Catholic faith. We know God directs all paths and no true instruction and knowledge of God is without merit and can be used by God for His purposes. All roads lead to the Catholic Church, and I believe they will all return one day. God's will be done! I do question, though, Hagee's knowledge and interpretation of Scripture. Without the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, he can and often does interpret scripture according to his whim and his agenda. A very glaring example is the scripture in the Bible which says, "For I hate divorce, says the Lord, the God of Israel..." (Malachi 2: 16) and in the New Testament, in Matt. 5: 32: "But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery." Many years ago, Hagee put his older wife aside and divorced her to marry a much younger woman. Does he ever talk about that? I rather doubt it. We must know Scripture, yes, but most importantly, we must live the Word of God. As I said, we must continue to pray for Hagee and all those who use the Bible and their ministries to be "false prophets." I have often heard him railing against sinners and his language and demeanor is very negative and almost mean spirited, but has he ever included himself in that group. I never have heard him do so. What's that Scripture about the log in your eye? Written by Dora I am a Catholic that lives in San Antonio and have been here for many, many years. Unless Mr. Hagee has experienced an awakening of some sorts, I have to inform all of you that it is no secret over here about his anti-Catholicism stance. He isn't the type to keep quiet and even my father (who doesn't practice the faith) has emphasized that there were more than one occasion where Mr. Hagee's statements against our Church has gotten him in hot water in and around our city. I was talking to a local Catholic store owner about our newly aquired Catholic radio station here, and he had mentioned to me that his father had to put down a large donation in order to keep Mr. Hagee from purchasing it, because--as he stated--his father was well aware of Mr. Haggee's intention in stopping the only Catholic radio station in the city from airing. Just so you'll know, there are quite a few protestant radio stations here in S.A.. Anyways...I thought ya'll should know. It didn't come as a big surprise...many of us are well aware of his views. Written by Leonard from San Antonio Please don't mistake my conviction about this work of the HOLY SPIRIT -- RESTORATION to mean that I believe Hagee or any other Christian denomination has not or is not saying anything against the Catholic Church... there would be no denominations if that were/was the case. Heck, I was a nun for 12 years and it is the GRACE of GOD alone that has kept me here and I have and continue to say things against the Catholic Church--- against things that are currently happening or not happening that I believe Jesus and the HOLY SPIRIT are not happy about. Jesus is not about condemnation he is about redemption... I just don't want nor do I want my Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ to stand in the way of this great move of the HOLY SPIRIT. Just like no one could take away my belief in the True presence of Jesus in the Eucharist when priests and nuns around me were calling this into question nor could anyone take away the grace I recieve from the Sacrament of Reconciliation when all were questioning its value and ceasing to go regularly..... saying they could just go to God directly... united and led by the HOLY SPIRIT we will lose nothing of who we are as Catholics and I believe gain from the perspectives of all of our Christian brothers and sisters in Christ! It is GRACE and WISDOM at work and our enemies are not fellow Christians. I believe those who are strong in their Faith and walk with CHRIST should not fear.... God is infinitely bigger than this division we as humans have caused over time.... let us not participate in keeping the division going when healing and wholeness is the CORE call of CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY! Let us link arms in our Love for Jesus Christ and begin to ponder what is JESUS going to more perfectly clarify when we meet Him face to face.......he pressed in my heart years ago... and knocked me quite off of my chair..... He is not going to ask me if I was Catholic...... He is rather going to ask me what I did with the gifts and graces that He gave me so that the world in my day and age knew of HIM, was touched by Him, loved by Him through me......With Love in Jesus and God bless the USA and bring all Christians together as we serve in our country bringing it back under His obvious sovereignty...soul by soul...starting with ourselves each day.... Written by Theresa Deal I applaud your efforts to inform Rev. Hagee about what the Catholic Church teaches and where it stands. All of us, not only our sheperds the bishops, need to witness to non-Catholics be they Christians or Jews as to the fullness of truth. As to conversion, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. I recall asking the help of a well-known Catholic priest(a former Lutheran), in converting an evangelical friend. His advice: be a good witness and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit. We have much to teach Evangelicals but we have much to learn - they trust the Holy Spirit and they are entrepreneural in seeking to bring people to Christ. I believe these people are preparing the ground; we need to add the seeds as you are doing in the case of Rev. Hagee. In God's time great numbers will seek the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church. Please keep doing what you are doing and let's pray that many more Catholics will do the same. The potential harvest is great - the workers are few. Gene Zurlo Written by Gene Zurlo I know it is the Holy Spirit who converts believers to the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic faith. Truly, I can't help but wonder how such an intelegent man as Pastor Hagee has not yet become a Catholic. Either he still has many misconceptions or he simply has not read the writings of the early church fathers or any good Catholic apologetics Written by Tom L. Hi Deal - very cool about your conversion story - I'll have to buy the book! To cut YOU off for a second (jk) I would just add "Sciences" to that list for me - Fr. Stanley L. Jaki single handidly converted me (realviewbooks.com)! Written by NorthoftheBorder Just pray for the Rev. Lord, take the blinders off of his eyes.... Open his heart and his soul to the TRUTH! Bring Rev. Hagee and all of his congregation into the one,true,and holy Catholic Church!!! Nothing at all is impossilbe with God! Maybe we'll send him the Diary of St. Faustina.. again, you never know.....we'll put him in the rays of Divine Mercy.....perhaps we can send him the Diary of St.Faustina and or the Catechism along with info the early Fathers and history of our Church! Can it really hurt? JESUS WE TRUST IN YOU!! C'mon all of you----what are we waiting for? Let's get the prayers going RIGHT NOW!! God Bless You All!! Written by Marsh Anne Quote(35)
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April 02nd, 2008 | 2:41pm Mr. Hudson, The notion that there is anything such as an alliance between Catholics and evangelicals is absurd. Evangelicals have no consistent doctrine (theological or social) - they move as the "spirit" moves them. Hagee is a disgrace and the fact that Huckabee and McCain would ally themselves with him is revealing. Your apologia for him tells me a lot about you, too. Written by Nick A correction to my earlier post: it was the Holy Spirit, not Fr. Jaki who converted me (he just cleared up a few issues) - or so Theresa and Marsh Anne can understand: *HOLY SPIRIT* Written by NorthoftheBorder Northoftheborder, yes, I was going to put science on the list too, but hesitated because I have no real aptitude in that area. Thank you for bringing up the work of Fr. Jaki who I have admired for many years. Written by Deal Hudson Deal, If you could ask Hagee a question for me... Who does he think is an anti-Catholic protestant, more so than him, and why? Ask him to define what he thinks makes an anti-Catholic protestant. Has he ever met one? Written by Summer Golf Girl I was born in to the whole catholic scheme, was baptized as an infant and was confirmed, received communion was a alterboy until early teens, gave up eating meat during lent, went to confession to get rid of my sins, prayed to a person(Mary) which by the way is BLASPHEMY....... My point is, upon reading these posts I have not read anyone that states that they have been Born-Again (Jn 3:7) and have accepted Christ as personal saviour and has been saved. I might add that one is not born a Christian, you must except Christ and His payment for your sins and believe that Christ died for your sins. I believe that is brother Hagee's sole mission is to make Christ available to anyone and everyone. I applaud John H for his straight forward preaching and teaching, and John H if you happen to read this you have no need to make an apology for speaking the truth. People think about your eternity and where you will spend it, your worried about JH hurting your feelings - Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy(Jn 10:10). If you think going to church every Sunday, saying your prayers and keeping the sacraments and doing good is the answer....... have you ever heard of being Deceived? Please consider Christ and not man for your salvation. Written by Ron Ron I am so happy that you not only visited this blog, I am happy that you took the time to enter into the dialogue/blog. I am sincerely sorry that in your Catholic experience you never met Jesus... I was truly blessed because all of my Sacramental experiences were about encountering HIM, and because of the continuous nourishment I recieved from THE WORD and THE SACRAMENTS both encounters with HIM, He has ever more deeply helped me understand the saving power of the BLOOD He shed on the CROSS for me, the VICTORIOUS Power of the Resurrection with which I, too, may walk out this life if I choose to follow Him and the amazing gift of the continuous presence of the HOLY SPIRIT He has imparted upon me so that I may faithfully until I meet Him face to face, be a strong witness in the WORLD. I thank GOD that He has surrounded you with HIS GRACE of Salvation in the Body of Christ in which you felt led.... and I fully expect to share in the Heavenly Banquet with you ..... I would be completely ecstatic that I would not have to wait until then to enjoy a supportive Christian bond with you on this side.......... and that is what I ask Him for this night! I hope that today will not be your only visit with us. Sincerely, T Written by Theresa The question for me is why did we (as a Church)leave it to him to rescue the Sisters? Why are we so disconnected at some underlying level that these Sisters could be left to live on their last money for survival? Where was their Bishop, that he should not know of and aid them in their situation? Or local Catholic churches? What Catholic would not have contributed to an additional collection to support these women? I am aware that there is a yearend one for all retired religious, but that is not the same call as "Feed these local Sisters now!" I believe this is a reason why Catholics stray, because they see him and others getting RESULTS. Not this vaporous "the Spirit converts", but HE, Mr Hagee, a visible leader who leads his people to a tangible rescue of the Sisters from the dark murkiness of Catholic bureaucracy. It is all the pieces of a good novel. They have no one to get approval from and so like lightning striking, it is done. It is more closely aligned to how our daily lives operate. Written by Mary This article was terrible. It didn't say anything. All it said was that Hagee got a sweet deal from some sisters. In the process he manages to bad mouth the Diocese. I am not sure what really went down, but Deal didn't make him confront any of his negative comments regarding Catholics. Deal has one objective, keep Republicans in power so he can still have sway in Washington. He should be ashamed for posing as a Catholic while buttering up to Rove and Bush. Look into Deal's personal life to see how he values his Catholic faith. He's nothing more than a pawn for the Republican party, and this article shows its. Written by Anonymous Are the sacraments necessary for salvation? "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." What are the sacraments?: "There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony." These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works. As we have already seen in previous chapters, the Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody: "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight..." Romans 3:20 Here is what God thinks of our good works: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags..." Isaiah 64:6 Must one be a Catholic to be saved? Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved. Though you will never hear a spokesperson for Catholicism admit it, this is exactly what this Catholic doctrine purports. I ask you again, can you accept that everyone outside the Catholic church will burn forever in hell? Traditions of men Please understand, these sacraments, which the Catholic church contends are necessary for salvation, did not even come from God. They are man-made rules which have been handed down through generations. So when you perform them, you are not obeying God, you are obeying the traditions of men. Salvation: through Christ or sacraments? If sacraments are necessary for salvation, why does God's Word proclaim the following? "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31. Paul, the Apostle, delivered these sobering words on the subject: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:18 Catholic friend: do you believe that good works like the sacraments are necessary for salvation? Do you consider it foolishness to believe that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Christ' s work on the cross? If so, God's Word warns that you will perish in hell. When Jesus declared that salvation came only through Him, not only was He telling the truth, He was repeating what He heard from the Father: "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God..." John 8:40 To suggest that Jesus is wrong is to suggest that the Father is wrong, as well. Jesus goes on to explain why people refuse to believe His Words: "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:47 To accept this Catholic doctrine, you must refuse to hear God's Words. Jesus said that if you can do this, then you are not of God. Are you sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Roman Catholic friend, that you are of God? Are you willing to turn your back on God's Word to accept man's words. If you can, you have reason for grave concern: "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29 Written by follower of Christ To Tom L One major reason why Pastor Hagee has not yet come over to the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic faith is simple if you really think about it.....He was forgiven of all past and present sins by the blood of Jesus, becoming a Catholic will not wash away a single sin and because of a single sin in the eyes of God He will not let you enter into heaven and will say to you on judgement day "depart from me I know you not" Matthew 25:41. Another sobering fact is that when you stand before God on judgement day you will be all alone, you and your sins that you thought the priest had the power to forgive(he does not) he is a sinner himself. So you are correct when you said Pastor Hagee is an intelligent man. Jesus forgives and forgets sins, man does not and can not can forgive sins nor does man forget your sins..... period. And as far as misconceptions, well he reads the Bible and not some good Catholic apologetics or early church leaders writings and I suggest you do the same. Remember only one sin is all it takes to keep you from life eternal with the Creator of the world. Written by Ron As a revert back home to Catholicism, I can tell you that there is much ignorance and hatred for the Church out there, and I believed much of it before my eyes were opened and I saw the truth. I've watched those shows once upon a time, and Jack Hagee is no friend to Rome. However, I don't think he totally understands his anti-Catholicism, as he doesn't fully understand the scriptures. You'd be gravely mistaken to think that he is not "sheep stealing" (as our separated bretheren like to call it) from the one, true Church. However, they sheep steal from anyone who doesn't believe their particular brand of Protestantism as well. They sincerely think they are saving souls. It's not the typical evangelical's fault really, they've just been handed on some horrendously erroneous teaching begun in the 1500s but unravelling from there. It happens. There will always be heresies to contend with in the Church. We have to love these folks because one day we may be standing next to them in Mass, or perhaps in heaven...or purgatory. We have to love and pray for those who persecute us, but we must not fail to correct them in love. I think in time maybe Deal will have the oppotunity to do this. He's made a great start. Rome wasn't built in a day! :) Written by Lisa Lisa, Please show me where purgatory is talked about in Gods word, and also you are not being persecuted you are being told the truth, there is a big difference. It sounds to me that you my friend don't understand the scriptures. Written by Ron Its been a few days now and no one has been able to clear up my previous post concerning purgatory, thats because no one can, its one lie of many. Written by Ron Still Waiting Ron, There a few places that you may look: 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7. You can also look at the following web site: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html You can find out what the teachings are if you really what to learn what the teachings are. One big issue I have with Rev. Hagee is that he seems to be his infatuation with Israel. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ. So are they then not lost and no longer part of God’s kingdom until then accept and acknowledge Jesus at the Christ? I support the current nation of Israel on a worldly political basis. We wait in Joyful Hope for the Coming of our Savior Jesus Christ based on God the Father timing and not by political action at the UN. Regards, Written by Pat If you believe in purgatory, the death of Jesus would not of been needed(in vain). 1 Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.: " Romans 5:1 by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Paul appears to have believed that the unsaved would simply be annihilated and exist no more in any form; the saved would attain eternal life in heaven). Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Purgatory does not exist since the saved will avoid the wrath and condemnation of God: Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Written by Ron Many of passages do seem to indicate that a saved person has already been totally forgiven his/her sins -- past, present and future. 1 John is particularly clear on this point. Purgatory would thus not be needed, because the believers have already had their sins wiped clean. Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..." 1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..." Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people..." Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." 1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Purgatory is from another gospel, don't wait until death to find out its not real. You will not get a second chance(rich man and the beggar, Luke 16:19-26) Written by Ron All of my responses above speaks the truth, if there is a problem that some one has with TRUTH you need to open GODS WORD and see for yourselves instead of letting man tell you what is right and wrong, you may disagree with what I said but it is still true whether you believe or not. Were the intentions of brother Hagee taken into consideration when his belief was attacked? Written by Ron Deal: I appreciate this article. While I don't think much of Pastor Hagee my wife, who is an Evangelical turned Roman Catholic watches him. I have one question: Can you show me where, in Pastor Hagee's sermons, he has stressed to his congregation that the Church of Tribulation is not the Roman or any other Catholic Church? Telling you is one thing. What does he tell his congregation? Has he mentioned to THEM that he believes that Catholics will be Raptured? Written by Eric Fisher All of my responses above speaks the truth, if there is a problem that some one has with TRUTH you need to open GODS WORD and see for yourselves instead of letting man tell you what is right and wrong, you may disagree with what I said but it is still true whether you believe or not. — RonWere the intentions of brother Hagee taken into consideration when his belief was attacked? What were his intentions? Has he stated emphatically to his congregation that he accepts the Catholic Church's members as being part of the Rapture (Read the article)? How do YOU feel knowing that I as a Roman Catholic may be right there with you if I confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior - which I did in receiving Confirmation - 43 years ago. And, to question another statement, how is asking the Mother of God to pray for all of us blasphemy? Do you ask your friends and congregants to pray for you? Look at the words to the Hail Mary - we greet her as did the Angel Gabriel and then ask that she pray for us. By your definition asking a friend to pray for you is at best a waste of time - your prayer should go directly to Jesus, not be directed to by the asking of another - and at worst is the very blasphemy of which you accuse others. I'll be interested in your response. We'll talk of Jesus directing Confession to men - and He did - another time. Written by Eric Fisher Deal, Your article was exceptionally well written and I commend your Christian charity towards Mr. Hagee. I certainly HOPE you helped him see certain misconceptions he had about the Catholic Church and truly hope that he isn't as anti-Catholic as he seems...but, frankly, I have my doubts. My cousins live in Austin/San Antonio area and are Protestants, but they themselves have little use for Mr. Hagee and tell me that he IS, truly anti-Catholic. Honestly, I think he fed you a big line of hooey and just said what made for peace. But, only God really knows, so we shall see. BUT may God bless YOU in your efforts! Written by David I am a Catholic Convert, I came from a fundamentalist background. I am shocked over and over again at how innocent Catholics are of those who are anti- Catholic. Most Catholics do not know what goes on behind Protestant closed doors. They don't know about all the little clicks and circles within the "born again" churches. I have watched Protestants be so cruel and rude, thinking they know it all, treating Catholics like they are non Christians, calling it another religion instead of another Christian church. Rarely do you hear or see this same treatment from Catholics. No, they frequent the so called Christian bookstores never noticing that the Catholic version of the bible is kept behind the counter on the bottom shelf, that those horrible comic book tracts are blatantly displayed that are so anti-Catholic that they come close to terrorism. But let me give you anti- Catholics a heads up. The HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH has a program called "Christ Renews His Parish..." It has been slow starting but now is catching on fire. Now sit down for this... everybody gets there own Bible! Yep! Catholics are reading em too... and they are praying prayers with their own words now and may the Lord have mercy they are having BIBLE STUDIES!!! You would be hard pressed to find a Catholic church now that does not have a Bible study... And you know what is the coolest? When they go into church its quiet... nobody is running up and down the isle and showing off their new dress or talking behind somebody's back... Catholics rarely, if ever even put their arm on the back of the pew... Oh yeah, that is because the Catholic church has SACRED SPACE within their church... because WE BELIEVE Jesus is really there. And here is another one for ya. We believe when we are doing our good works that we are working our salvation out with fear and trembling. You can have all the faith you want but James says that faith WITHOUT works is DEAD.... This is to you "Ron." I don't want to hurt your feelings but you sound mean and hateful. I like being Catholic, I thank God everyday that I am not surrounded by people like you anymore. It is a waste of time to feel that way. I don't think hate is fighting the good fight, I think only love can fight that fight. There are a lot of if's in the Bible, not everything is a promise and it ain't up for your own interpretation either. Think about this... Do you think Jesus is gonna come back and say "Ya know I just hate it that you all valued and praised my Mother so much so I guess its off with your heads..." Leah, peace out Written by Leah |
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