"The Kennedys are neither holier nor more wicked than other families..."

They are, maybe, neither holier nor more wicked than the Gotti family.

They are a lot more wicked than MY family, or any family I hang out with. There is not one member of the Kennedy family, not even an in-law, in three generations, who has publicly lifted a pinky finger to oppose abortion or any of the other evils Ted Kennedy has devoted forty years to promoting.

This sentimental glop doesn't cut it for me.

Ted Kennedy is a vocal, implacable, shrill promoter of EVIL. You name it. Abortion. Partial-Birth Abortion. Embryonic Stem Cell Research. Gay Marriage. Oppressive (anti-family, anti-marriage) taxation. The slander campaign against Robert Bork, and the slandering and bullying of countless lesser-known people who have crossed his path in hearings. Collaboration with the KGB to undermine U.S. opposition to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. If it's wicked, violent, sordid, evil--he's given a speech shrieking that it's a sacred right under the Constitution.

Because he is pro-abortion, and thus an obstinate, manifest sinner, Ted Kennedy MUST be refused Communion and a Catholic funeral. I'm just quoting Canon Law and the Pope. Of course, Archbishops Wuerl and O'Malley know better than the Pope.

"Pro-abortion Catholic" equals EX-Catholic.

Without unequivocal public repentance for decades of murderous promotion of EVIL, every word of praise for Ted Kennedy from ANY Catholic, every Catholic rite celebrated in public for Ted Kennedy, is a scandal.

Kennedy will have his big, splashy, scandalous "Catholic" funeral, celebrated by a toadying Judas-priest. Dozens of pro-abortion politicians will march up for Communion. Archbishops Wuerl and O'Malley will hide out in an undisclosed location. And the surviving Kennedys and all the other "Catholic" baby-killers, and the bishops who toady to them, will, thus refreshed and "nourished" by their sacrilegious Communions, continue the scandal that is eating the heart out of the Catholic Church in America.

It's really disappointing to see a priest of Jesus Christ miss the point that we condemn actions, not people. Christ absolutely forbid us to judge.

I was also surprised by the tone of Ms. Scalia's article, but perhaps she knows Sen. Kennedy and members of his family personally and wants to bring them back into the Church. While Fr. Joseph's comment seems to be over the top, over 40 million abortions is a lot of pain and death. Let's pray for the Kennedy family and for ourselves.

Dear Ms Scalia,
You write: "Ted Kennedy belongs to his family, to the Catholic Church..." Who says so? While we don't know of a formal renunciation of his faith, his positions indicate clearly a de facto renunciation of it. Participation in the Catholic faith is a matter of will and tender-hearted sentiments won't make it other than what it is.
Lastly, you state: "The days of public penances are long past." Are you making a pronouncement here? I am sorry, but public figures who collaborate with evils like abortion in a public forum should make a public confession. Why? Because they have caused great scandal to the very Church you allege them to be a part of, notwithstanding the compounding scandal of Archbishop ("I wash my hands of this matter")Wuerl's silence on the matter.
If you are experiencing pangs of sadness for the soul of Mr Kennedy, that is well-placed. But try not to let your feelings betray your reason.

What's written is condemning enough, but when he name calls us "bigots"....well that says it all. People, even politicians want to be responsible for themselves don't they, otherwise what are they? Ted has been treding on the cross for years.

I took a couple of things away from this. One is that Ms. Scalia illustrates a fine point; no matter what Senator Kennedy's positions or beliefs may be, that does not exclude him from the same basic rights of charity as any other human being.

Second, I take great exception to anyone who says that the Kennedys are more or less wicked than anyone else. That presumes far too much about the inner life of the family that we, from the outside, simply cannot know. Can we say that the actions that Senator Kennedy has taken in the public record go against church teachings? I'm fairly certain we can say that.

However.

To make a public statement that one person is 'holier' or 'more righteous' or 'less sinful' than another is to risk God's judgement, as He Himself stated. I would also point out the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican, wherein God exactly points out His reaction to one who contrasts himself with someone else to the other's detriment.

To say that Senator Kennedy is not perfect is exactly the same as saying he is human. Should he receive Communion? By Church teaching, no. However, I see nothing in Ms. Scalia's article saying that he should. Sacraments, yes; of those, most of us would believe that Penance would do him the most good. However, since we do not know the state of his soul, we cannot really say if this is true.

Is he a member of the Church? Presuming he has been baptized, and that he not been subsequently excommunicated, then yes he is. I firmly believe we need more examples of 'good Catholics', which I personally do not believe that Senator Kennedy fits, but treating him in a non-Catholic manner does no good to him or to the one treating him in that manner.

Please, take this to heart.

"The Kennedys are neither holier nor more wicked than other families..."

Only God can judge their holiness or wickedness.

I will say that the Kennedys get away with more than other families...in terms of crime, even rape and murder.

I understand that many are bamboozled by the money, charisma, and good looks. They aren't a good Catholic family, though, and I don't think they deserve the attention they receive.

I am amazed at the lack of capacity of people who have commented to grasp such basic and fundamental points. Elizabeth does a very nice job of giving life to a couple of Gospel values here...we should recognize that we are all children of God and that our primary concern about examining our conscience is that we should examine our own.

Living a life like the Kennedy's is a burden that few have to endure, and I am glad that my shortfalls are not as public. Seeing Ted Kennedy as a child of God requires us to search for the goodness in the man. Can no one say something positive about a man who has been in public life for so long? How hard are our hearts?

My prayers continue to be with their family and thank you for the invitation to challenge myself, Elizabeth.

I'm glad Fr. Joseph and Dcn. Ed won't be meeting my family any time soon.

We cannot judge persons, but we can judge actions, and a person's actions at least indicate some things about the person in question. On that basis, I have this to say:

Ted Kennedy is in serious danger of eternal damnation. We must pray for him to repent of his sins. Considering the region of the brain which the tumor is attacking, we must pray for this repentance to come sooner rather than later.

Fr. Joseph is also in serious danger of eternal damnation, for his apparent spite and vindictiveness and self-righteousness. We must also pray for his soul, especially since these are the sins hardest to recognize in one's own heart, hardest to root out, and hardest to let go of.

I need prayers, too! I've committed my fair share of sins, including some involving grave matter (I plead lack of full consent, but God knows best). Don't forget to pray for me!

Agreed, Mr. Healy. Actions can definitely be examined. Until we have the 'microscope of the soul', persons are a rather harder lot to examine. ;)

I would perhaps append to your second and third paragraphs, "According to my current understanding of Church doctrine, ..."

If nothing else, should people who are opposed to Senator Kennedy's policies and positions yet obviously care for his health and well-being (not to mention his soul), perhaps some reconciliation can occur. On the other hand, if those of us who profess the Catholic faith grandstand and make his current medical issue some 'sign of God's judgement', I'm fairly certain that reconciliation with the Church and God would become much more difficult.

Is there any way to know whether or not someone that posts here and claims clerical titles actually has such? I am not 'calling out' posters here, by any means, but the subject has been on my mind for some time and I thought I would ask.

Am quite sure that one of Senator Kennedy's sisters was publicly pro-life.

If one is righteous enough to throw stones, then one should be careful enough to get the facts straight.

...Where is the mercy and charity?

With all due respect, Father, who is to say Senator Kennedy won't repent of his sins? Perhaps he will regret what he has done and wish to offer up his sorrow to God...his time in Purgatory may be long, but I am not one damn him to Hell, nor should anyone else. I too decry the horror of Abortion, and his part in it...but Redemption is always there for all....

"Is there any way to know whether or not someone that posts here and claims clerical titles actually has such?"

Yeah, Scott, my first thought was "troll-alert." But who knows. They might be clerics in a bad mood and lacking charity and prudence. They might be just anyone with the same problems. Regardless, I'm glad it will be Jesus instead of them at the Last Day LOL.

Mrs. Scalia has said repeatedly on her Anchoress blog that we cannot know the state of another person's soul. It's an important concept to keep in the front of our minds. I do believe that Jesus will be asking us on the Last Day "and just exactly how did you receive the power to read his mind .... ?"

This does not preclude the necessity for those who sin very publicly to make some kind of amends very publicly as well. But, sadly, that issue is being addressed with uncharity, even by the self-described clerics.

Fr. Joseph is right on. We all deserve mercy upon confession and repentance. I fail to see how Ted K. can be excused, save for a cause impossible for humans to detect. I pray for his repentance and salvation but we cannot go around exalting that kind of career. I am sure Marcion and Arrius too may have been good guys in someone's view but that does not entitles them to be excepted from obeying Catholic doctrine.

If saving a soul covers a multitude of sins... what is the result of misleading thousands of souls into perdition?

God is showing His mercy in giving Ted time to reflect and repent. A time Mary Jo Kopechne never had.

That-in my book-is a lot of mercy.

Because of Ted Kennedy's power and wealth, much would be expected of him by God! Instead, he chose to have a hand in that most heinous of all crimes - condemning 40 million innocent babies to a most cruel death, whom I might add, did not have the benefit of baptism or a "splashy Catholic funeral". May God forgive him. I know it's most difficult for me to have good will towards him; I pray fervently that I will have the generosity to do so!

If anyone would like to read a brief, honest and caring overview of Ted Kennedy by an orthodox Catholic, check out this piece by Fr. Euteneuer, Human Life International president. (He asks for prayers too!)

http://www.hli.org/sl_2008-05-23.html

"To he whom much is given, much is also expected" -Luke 12:48.

Ms. Scalia's sentimental sludge notwithstanding, (Episcopalianism anyone?), she misses the main point of Ted Kennedy's dreadful life and times. While it is true that no one on earth can judge a man's eternal salvation (or lack thereof), it is quite clear that, just as Hitler's ordering the death of 6 million Jews put his spot in heaven in jeopardy, Ted's sponsoring of and voting for abortion legislation (and the subsequent deaths it caused) puts him on the edge of the same precipice. Yes, we should pray for the careless Kennedy's soul, but first we must pray he recants his apostasy and fights to repeal his awful pro-death legislation (not to mention take back his endorsement of the Obam(n)a-ble Woe-man) before it's too late.

I came here looking for an inspirational and thanksgiving piece about our courageous members of the military and veterans. Instead, I find not only that opportunity sadly lost, but also a more tasteless than usual partisan smear written under the guise of feigned concerned for and amazingly omnipotent analysis of Senator Kennedy’s physical and spiritual condition. This invitation to (some) replies laced with hate-filled rhetoric marks a new low even for this site. It’s sickening. The last time I looked, two wrongs still didn’t make a right. And, I say again, I believe in the separation of Church and hate.

“Oh, how great is God’s mercy; let every soul praise it.” (Saint Faustina’s Diary, 917)

Like all of us, Kennedy is a complicated character, with both strengths and weaknesses -- and sometimes appalling flaws, many of them played out in public. I'm not a fan, but when looking at the full measure of his life, we can't ignore the fact that he has often fought for a host of issues and concerns that matter deeply to Catholics.

From Kennedy's biography on his website:

"His effort to make quality health care accessible and affordable to every American is a battle that Kennedy has been waging ever since he arrived in the Senate. In addition, Kennedy is active on a wide range of other issues, including education reform and immigration reform, raising the minimum wage, defending the rights of workers and their families, strengthening civil rights, assisting individuals with disabilities, fighting for cleaner water and cleaner air, and protecting and strengthening Social Security and Medicare."

Also, when whispering a prayer for this man and his family, let's not forget his former wife, Joan, who herself has struggled with demons.

This is a family full of fractures and wounds, and merit our prayers. And, I think, some measure of mercy. The Lord says "It is mercy I desire, not sacrifice." One of the most striking details in the parable of the prodigal son is that the father runs to meet his wayward child. He doesn't wait for him to complete the journey. He goes to him. There is a lesson in that for all of us, I think -- about how we should offer mercy, and how it is offered to us by the Father.

The simple fact is: none of us knows where Kennedy is on his own journey. Let's turn down the rhetoric and the vitriol, and pray that God's love and mercy will guide him safely home.

And let's pray, as well, that others will pray for us in the same way.

Thank you so very much, Deacon Kandra!

Deacon Kendra -

The prodical son was sorrowful for his sins - I see none of that in Ted Kennedy. I wonder if he comes face to face with Mary Jo in the next life how he will explain why he left her at the bottom of the river while he took off. Yes, I forgive him for the death and destruction he did to innocent people BUT I won't forget too easily. Like I said, I have to work on myself to be more charitable to him. It's part of being a Christian Catholic but it IS difficult knowing that, FOR DECADES, he blocked the pro-life movement every which way in order to allow babies to continue to be aborted daily.

I do hope Kennedy PUBLICALLY repents.

Committing his own sins are one thing, but "misleading thousands of souls into perdition" is quite another.

People who publicly promote wickedness may be called "wicked," without violating our Lord's command. You distort the meaning of that command in a manner that is, unfortunately, very common.

...so clouded hearts that something as simple as mercy and redemption been blotted out of the picture? Hopefully he will repent of his sins, that is the eternal hope for all who stray from the Church. I have no love for the Democratic Party, or Ted Kennedy's voting record, but he is a Catholic, albeit one who has wandered off the path...a member of our family, whether you like it or not. All you can do is pray for a person who is obstinate in their error, that they will come to their senses. That is between Ted Kennedy, his Confessor, and God. If he repents of his Sins, recieves Last Rites and Absolution...who are we to say such things like "he should be denied a Funeral Mass." On this I will defend Senator Kennedy from attack...not because I approve of his voting record, but because such pettiness is beneath all of us.

I say, yes.

He didn't make a mockery out of the Church. He made a baffoon out of himself.

A Catholic funeral is an opportunity for us to come together as the Body of Christ to pray for Kennedy's salvation.

We need to pray for everyone's salvation, even Charles Manson, etc....

Sorry, but you are mistaken.

The Church denies Catholic funerals to unrepentant Mafia dons. The same should be true of all pro-abortion Catholics.

This does not prevent the offering of prayers and Masses for such people.

It is the bishops and priests who toady to pro-abortion Catholics who are making a mockery of the Church.

Well, I didn't remember about the Mafia. Okay, so he shouldn't get a splashy funeral. We should still pray for him. The bishops and priests need to get on the same page here. Either the dissidents are all denied a funeral or they're not.

In fairness, T. Kennedy has had a hand in legislating good things for society in accordance with the "social issue doctrine" of the Catholic Church, e.g. health care for the poor, etc.. However, on the most important & non-negotiable issue - LIFE- he has failed miserably.. We get back to the some old quesion, which is more important, the social issues or the life issues? If Ted Kennedy is sorry for what he did, it is a requirement of catholic doctrine to make right the wrong he has done to society and that in my opinion would entail publically announcing his "mistake" since he cannot ask forgiveness of those he has had a hand in murduring!

I think it may be premature to decide, at this moment, what sort of funeral Kennedy deserves.

A canon lawyer posted this over at Catholic Exchange:

"It is important to note that a funeral may not be denied to any Catholic, no matter how openly sinful his life may have been, if he has manifested repentance before his death. By the grace of God, it's always possible that a notorious criminal may choose to make a good confession and thereby reconcile himself to God and His Church. Note that while the sin may have been public, there's no requirement to publicize the sinner's repentance. But to avoid scandalizing the public, who may be questioning why the deceased is being permitted to have a funeral Mass, it may be prudent for Church officials somehow to indicate in general terms that he was in fact reconciled before his death."

T. Kennedy will make no public penance for abortion. He's backing Obama, remember?

Since the papal masses of last month, we now know that it's wrong to deny communion to pro-abortion politicians.

Therefore, how can it be right to deny a public Catholic funeral to one of the most longstanding, vocal, and effective proponents of abortion "rights," gay "marriage," embryo-destructive stem cell research, and a host of other evils? "Scandal" is a wholly outmoded concept, done away with by the reforms in the spirit of Vactican II.

If Catholic teaching on the life issues were true, that public support for abortion is mortally sinful, we'd know with assurance that Sen. Kennedy, unless he repents in this life, is destined for hell.

But of course, that wouldn't be <i>charitable</i>, and, since God just couldn't damn such a famous man, a <i>Kennedy</i> after all, it's the sin of uncharity that makes anyone suggest that the Senator has anything at all to repent for.

So if the Church announces his reconciliation, what does that do to his Obama endorsement. Will the Church say that he renounces infanticide Obama as well?

The father ran to meet his son only on seeing him. He didn't wait for him to express sorrow for his ways. He was moved by compassion and went to him and embraced him before the prodigal son had even uttered a word. Merely seeing him was enough.

Imagine how much our own Father loves us!

Right, Deacon Gregg, but the son was on his journey home to his father. Kennedy needs to return home to the Church if he wants his sins forgiven and his dignity restored.

And I think that perhaps we should rejoice should Senator Kennedy die in a state of Grace. I'm not writing his obituary yet, the man is still alive. Remember the criminal on the Cross being crucified with Jesus. He made no "public" repentance, and while Scripture doesn't record his specific crimes, he could have been a vile murderer....But Christ forgave him and ensured his entry into paradise.

I want to be charitable but I would have to say I feel most like Fr. Joseph. Ted Kennedy is a man who has, literally, gotten away with murder. If you or I had left the scene of an accident, left a woman in the car under water and did not phone the police for long hours afterwards, we would be in prison. If he had one iota of concern for Mary Jo Kopechne he would have, at least, called the police immediately. Everything I have read says that her autopsy showed she did not drown, she suffocated. This means she was in an air bubble and could possibly have been saved had Teddy called for help immediately.

Now, the other issues that he has publicly supported for the past 35 to 40 years are beyond comprehension....abortion, partial-birth abortion, stem-cell research, gay marriage and on and on and on. How many people have been scandalized by his actions? How many people think that the Catholic Church is wrong on these issues because, my gosh, Ted Kennedy supports them????

I am NOT happy that this has happened to him. However, to ignore these things and have the big splashy Catholic funeral seems to be beyond the pale. How about a quiet service with just his family present? No t.v. cameras, no commentators talking about his "illustrious" life, etc. No bishop extolling his virtues. That should be enough.

David W,

Actually the criminal repented when he said that Jesus had done nothing wrong while he, and the other thief, deserved what was happening to them.

There are the fourteen bishops who have announced that they will obey Canon Law and the Pope. And then there are the rest of the bishops.

This is the condition of the Church in America.

Indeed. But all that is necessary is for the journey to begin. The Father, who sees and loves, will be moved with compassion to see His child even a long way off, and will go to greet him and welcome him home.

As I mentioned earlier, we're not in a position to know where Kennedy is on his personal journey.

Pope Benedict as a cardinal said, "love without truth is blind."

Let's love him, but not be blinded to the truth.

I didn't say he didn't repent. What I meant was that he didn't call a press conference in the middle of Jeruselem and say "Yes, I was a wretch and I'm sorry I stole and knifed people" before his repentance. That may sound flippant, but I think its important that we don't forget our own flawed and wretched natures. I will condemn Senator Kennedy's support of Abortion, and speak out against his record in the Senate, but I will not condemn Senator Kennedy or speculate on whether he is going to Heaven or Hell...it isn't my place, nor do I feel even minutely qualified to do so. I found Kennedy's record in the Senate on life issues to be abominable, and fair game for criticism. The rebukes from his fellow Catholics are certainly deserved, HOWEVER...I think its important we keep perspective here.

According to Canon law, Mr. Kennedy has automatically excommunicated himself -latae sententiae excommunication (canon 1398 and canon 915) due to his voting in favor of abortion.

Although he may think or proclaim that he is a Catholic, and the news media and others may proclaim him a Catholic, he is not a Catholic in the eyes of the Church, and it is the Church who declares one to be Catholic or not.

He should *not* have a Catholic funeral simply because he is not a Catholic, and only Catholics can have a Catholic funeral.
As has been stated in a previous post, according to canons 1398 and 915 he has been automatically excommunicated due to his public voting record in favor of abortion.

Just to put Mr. Kennedy's record straight:

He has a 0% record of voting in favor of life, and there is not one life-related issue in which his vote reflects a concern for the weakest members of our society, let alone the concern that his supposed Catholic faith places on them. Senator Kennedy is rated 100% by NARAL for his pro-choice voting record.
Voted NO on banning human cloning.
Voted NO on banning partial birth abortions.
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions.
Voted NO on criminal penalties for harming an unborn child during the commission of another crime.
Voted NO on maintaining the ban on military base abortions.
Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines.
Voted YES on $100 million to “reduce teen pregnancy” by hedonistic sex education programs and contraceptives.
==============
Should we pray for God's mercy upon him? Absolutely!
But we must also condemn his actions.

Certainly if he does not repent of his Sins, he places his soul in jeopardy of Hell, but if he asks for Last Rites or Confession, he is entitled to his chance for repentance. I'm not eager to see Mr. Kennedy roast in Hell, and I've seen posts (not from this blog) where it was exactly that. I'm not saying forget what he has done, or excuse his record. What I'm saying is that as a Catholic who has put himself outside of his Church, if he wishes to repent and reconcile it isn't our place to stand in his way.

I don't think anyone here (even Ms. Scalia) is saying that we should ignore Senator Kennedy's actions. I certainly am not. However, to believe that those actions free us from the bounds of normal human civility, much less Catholic charity, is erroneous.

Charity does not mean we should be blind to the actions of those around us. Far from it. It would not be charitable to discount such. However, I have found that the greater the degree to which one is repentant for one's own faults and failings, the greater the mercy one shows to others.

Really, in the end, Senator Kennedy is much more likely to return to the fullness of life in the Church were he to encounter those who earnestly wish such, and not those who seek to further divide him from the Church.

We can pray, and/or comment. I think that focusing on the former over the latter would be more helpful to Senator Kennedy.

I got an email from someone telling me that the commenters here were busily deciding what sort of funeral Ted Kennedy should be given (hey, he's still alive, here!), mischaracterizing my piece as saying that Ted Kennedy need not repent of his sins, and leaving comments so lacking in charity toward a fellow sinner as to themselves create multiple examples of "public" scandal to Catholics.

I thought, oh, no, come on - they would not do that - that must be an exaggeration.

Wow.

Two old hymns we probably all sang out every week keep running thru my head, here: "They'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love," and "Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me."

Cardinal Ratzinger was quoted above. He also said, "you can drown understanding in facts."

Understanding is kind of like wisdom and like mercy in that it is one of those things that moves all around "facts."

Some here want nothing less than a PROOF of repentance, preferably something along the lines of Christ carrying his cross, and put on live tv, please! Nothing less will do!

It seems to me that there is a basic dis-satisfaction being expressed here, with the church and her willingness to allow people to wonder about things rather than control information like the old Soviet Union. How sad for you that Ted Kennedy will be permitted to repent without benefit of videotape and your witness. How awful for you that the best you might get - assuming Ted Kennedy makes his confession and repudiation to a priest - is perhaps a statement from the church that he had confessed and received communion. (Or, you know, they may not bother to issue the statement because really, at the most fundamental level, that's not really our business.)

But the thing is, even if such a statement was released, some of you probably would not believe it, or accept it as sufficient. You'd call it "accounting" and "ass-covering by the bishops giving him this big, scandalous funeral."

Christ abounds in mystery, so does his mercy, and so does the church in her stubborn insistence that there is no timetable on when we may throw ourselves into that glorious exchange between our stained souls and the blood of the Lamb of God.

And a good thing. too. Jesus promised us that as much mercy as we have shown, shall be shown to us. I'm counting on that, myself, because I know I personally am going to need a lot of mercy.

He also voted to repeal the death penalty; to increase border security; to give merit pay to teachers; to increase the minimum wage; to support workers in their right to strike; to support a temporary worker program to allow illegal immigrants to work legally; to increase funding for child care programs; and to increase funding to states for homeland security issues. He also is on record as supporting pre-emptive strikes against countries deemed a threat to the United States. He is also opposed to torture and, not insignificantly, the continuation of the war in Iraq.

Many of those positions, it could be argued, support and encourage life.

You can read all of his positions at www.votesmart.org.

Does that override his continued support for abortion? Of course not. But it gives a fuller picture of a man who is too often depicted as pure evil.

Like all of us, he can't be pigeonholed that easily.

It's impossible to overstate the mischief done by the claim that the Kennedy and those like him are following Catholic social policy in their non-life policies. This is simply not true. God did not dictate Ted Kennedy's health care plan, any more than He dicated John McCain's. The mischief comes in when the real violation of Catholic teaching inherent in supporting abortion is falsely balanced against the supposed violation of Catholic doctrine of fighting social injustice by non-Democratic means. It would make it more difficult for Catholics to rationalize their support of pro-abortion politicians if they were forced to admit that these politicians do not have a monopoly on social concerns. No doubt Kennedy fell for this rationalization himself.

Elizabeth,

Please don't point the finger at many of us here and accuse us of being uncharitable. If Ted Kennedy is to be given the benefit of the doubt aren't we all entitled to the same? This is a very difficult situation...for Kennedy...for us all. Many of us, myself included, have been disappointed in and angry with Ted for a long, long time. He has now been diagnosed with brain cancer. Human beings and our emotions are very complex. Are we to jump from being angry and disappointed to loving compassion overnight? If Ted is being prayed for and given time to repent and we are instructed not to judge, can we,also, not be judged as we struggle with our conflicting emotions?

Maybe prayers for ALL concerned are warranted??

I for one would not dare pass judgment here. But Edward Kennedy HAS the opportunity to repent and receive reconciliation. It is up to him, I pray he takes the time left him to do this.

My own husband, age 30, had barely 6 weeks from his seizure that announced the presence of GBM to his death.

I ask others to join me in prayers that Edward Kennedy is repentant before his time runs out.

Kathy -

"Aren't we all entitled to the same" doesn't really apply, as I don't profess to know the state of Kennedy's soul, and I haven't professed to know the state of anyone else's soul, either, only mine. What I commented on was the fact that - while Kennedy has INDISPUTABLY caused scandal for the church in his lifetime - we were doing a pretty good job of doing it, as well, right here, right now.

Kennedy is not my favorite person; my piece confessed that my first instincts to charity and prayer for him were imperfect. Knowing that SHAMED me, because as a Christian I do think my most basic job - the one I should be able to do, even if I screw everything else up - is to be able to (as the psalmist says in 122) "pray for the good" of others, even if they are not my favorites.

Your question, "Are we to jump from being angry and disappointed to loving compassion overnight?" illustrates well that we (all of us) are perhaps spending much more time being "angry and disappointed" than praying and asking for what Solomon asked for, which was "an understanding heart."

You asked: "If Ted is being prayed for and given time to repent...can we,also, not be judged as we struggle with our conflicting emotions?"

HAn interesting question. Kennedy is facing an awful time, & it would be a terrible thing for him to die in his sins and unrepentant, something we wouldn't wish on anyone. So we come here and spout out that he's not a "real" Catholic, that he should make public penance, that he is evil, we decide what sort of funeral he should be allowed, etc, etc...and then sniffle and say, "but shouldn't we get to indulge our anger and "disappointment" for a little while because we're struggling with all these emotions?"

Truthfully, no, I don't think so. That sounds like making excuses instead of dealing with the fact that we've held back on love, when love is the thing that saves us and saves a Kennedy, too.

Hating the sin while loving the sinner is fundamental. If we can't nail down that BASIC tenet of our faith, how do we justify ourselves on the basis of other tenets? And how do we set ourselves up as arbiters of what should happen to Kennedy? Shouldn't we instead be grateful that the Church reminds us of the limitless of God's mercy and the privileged relationship we each have with the Blood of the Lamb - one so privileged that we simply cannot demand to know all we'd like to about each other's soul?

I include myself in all of this, because I'm as capable of failing in love as anyone.

As I said above, Mother Teresa said when we die, God's going to look at how much we've loved. Have we loved greatly or stingily, loving only those who are "deserving" of it? St. Therese of Lisieux spoke of bringing to God either a thimble or a goblet full of love. It just seems to me it's something that needs working on every day

Ted Kennedy is our brother; he needs our prayers. Someday we'll need the prayers of others, ourselves. His illness gives us a chance to love and pray or to condemn and not love. That's all. It's all I was saying in my piece, too.

By all means, let us all pray for each other, always.

I can't agree. Forty years of scandal--perpetrated by bishops and priests even more than by Kennedy--requires equally public repair.

If Kennedy had been personally involved in an abortion, we would not know. It would be none of our business if or when he confessed.

But that is not what has been going on for the past forty years. Kennedy has been attacking the Church daily, misleading millions, daily. And clerics have been groveling and toadying to him and ex-Catholics like him, daily.

All of this is academic. Kennedy will be given a big, splashy funeral, and the scandal will continue. There are still enough corrupt bishops and priests, in the strategic posts, to guarantee this.

I am raising my voice to say that this situation is NOT a sign of authentic Christian mercy, but corruption.

Elizabeth,

I don't believe an honest stuggle with feelings should be called indulgence. We are all human!!! It seems to me you are much more understanding of Kennedy than some poor schmuck TRYING to discern the right thing.

"Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there."

"I don't believe an honest stuggle with feelings should be called indulgence. "

Okay, I chose a bad word. I'll buy that. But come on, Kathy, what's hard to discern, here? The right thing is to pray for him, isn't it? And leave all the rest of it to his priests and the Holy Spirit?

What more, really, do any of us need to do?

...doing the right thing comes as easy for me as it obviously does for you:)

And THEN, Jesus said to her...?

Jesus said to her...?

If the laity adopt that attitude, then the Church is lost.

The difference between Kennedy and the ordinary sinner is that Kennedy is really a heresiarch. The heresy is that government is free of all moral restraints. Government can steal, murder, and lie, and the Church has no business raising its voice. Kennedy is a proponent of the heresy that when power speaks, truth must shut up.

The vast majority of bishops in America are adherents of Kennedy's heresy. If the laity do nothing but "pay, pray, and obey," the Church is dead.

When a heresiarch approaches death, if he wishes to die in union with the Church, then his repentance and retraction of his heresy MUST be public, just as a thief cannot be absolved if he insists on keeping the money, or a slanderer cannot be absolved if he continues to proclaim his slander.

Fr. Joseph, your are passionate but forgive me if I find you pastorally unpersuasive. All the righteousness in the world will not make up for a lack of love. I think if the church err's she errs on the side of love, which is probably, in the end, the right thing.

Sometimes I think 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 is so overused at weddings that we overlook its clear instruction to us:

If I speak with the tongue of angels but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, love is not pompous, it is not inflated,
it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I still have to say I see what Fr. Joseph is talking about. A crucible.....the word you used, Elizabeth. Crucible...a severe, searching test or trial. If we just say.....yes, I always thought Ted Kennedy was an immoral jerk....oh, now he is dying......let us just pray for him. There is something missing here. Are we not missing a larger picture here? Something more complex. Isn't something being overlooked? Something being minimized. I can only compare it to growing up with alcoholism. Horrific things are done to the family. Then, finally, the parent gets sober. It takes YEARS for things to be worked out. If there is an immediate feeling of "its all over, mom is sober now," things just get buried and are never resolved. It is a crucible....a severe, searching test or trial towards recovery for all. Isn't this kind of the same thing Kennedy has done to the country and church? I am not expecting him to be in sackcloth and ashes on the church steps. BUT this issue is much more complex than let's just all pray for him.

I am speaking up for the truth. I am breaking the conspiracy of silence.

There are canonized saints who have spent decades ranting against corruption in the Church with far more "passion" ("venom," "bile," you name it) than I have. That doesn't make me a saint, but it calls into question the judgment that I am displaying a lack of "love."

If Ted Kennedy--the sworn protector of the American holocaust, the shrill cheerleader for the murder of 50 million people (and the attendant spiritual death of at least 100 million more) is not an enemy of the Church, then the Church has NEVER had an enemy.

The enemies of the Church are welcome, always, to repent, but if the public words and funeral rituals of the Church upon the death of her enemies are indistinguishable from those upon the death of her friends, then the words and rituals have become meaningless and the Church has lost her mind.

In the U.S., this HAS happened, the Church HAS succumbed to insanity, because too many in the hierarchy and among the laity are heavily invested in the proposition that Ted Kennedy is a practicing Catholic.

Fr. Joseph,

I agree. This isn't about displaying a lack of love. It seems to be more about political correctness. Nowadays we are not supposed to question or make judgments about anything/anyone. That would require some time, effort and discernment. And, also, courage as questions/judgments are NOT very popular things in our culture.

Please keep speaking up!

Elizabeth -

It seems to me from your last posting that you are defending Ted Kennedy. Please keep in mind, we are defending 40 million aborted babies.

We don't have money, power, good lucks or the benefit of a "Harvard Degree" here BUT we do CARE about innocent aborted babies brought about by the man you are defending. Pilate asked " What is Truth". Truth is, Ted Kennedy is an indirect killer. Let's call a sin not by any other name please.

Fr. Joseph,

I thank God for courageous Catholics (we'll let the Holy Spirit announce your sainthood at a future date) such as yourself. I have to admit that I am not as courageous as you, but you and bishops such as Archbishop Burke are calling us all to stand for something -- ANYTHING!! -- especially the speedy end to the barbaric slaughter of 50,000,000 innocents worldwide every year.

I have to admit that when I first read this article I was seething, and I would have been the first to post if I did it then. I was not brave, and I somehow knew that you would be the brave one.

We are in the mess we are in now, not because of the growing number of heroes such as you, but because of wimps like me, and the indoctrinated such as Elizabeth Scalia.

We have become a vacuous, no-demand, no-standards, no-requirements, no-guilt, do-good enterprise of sloppy sentimentality which, ad nausium, runs to 1 Cor. 13 for every argument we want to make, as though Christ never took a stand for anything.

Of course I know that you know, Fr. Joseph, the Church will never be lost, in terms of its demise. But we certainly are facing one of the weakest times in its history, beginning with the "Silence Among the Lambs" of its shepherds through to the heralding of leaders such as excommunicated Catholics as Senator Kennedy.

No doubt Senator Kennedy will continue to be elevated to hero status as he prepares to meet his Maker and Judge, but I pray for his sainthood because he has an opportunity to de-program his long career of indoctrinating literally millions of Catholics who have lost and will lose their eternal reward because they trusted Ted over God.

Edward Kennedy recanting his life-long pro-death campaign ... let us pray for his sainthood ... without this public recant, it is not possible, which is Fr. Joseph's point. Hw may be a hero to the world, but that hardly matters after his last breath.

We need to pray for his soul, and all the souls who have been slaughtered or lost because of his life-long, misguided campaign.

With God, all things are possible.

I want to clarify something that I mentioned in my post, especially since some accused me of uncharity. I have no inside knowledge about the state of Kennedy's soul; I pray for him nonetheless as I would pray that all would live in Christ.

Some here presume that Ted Kennedy is Catholic because he was baptized. Others presume to know what is in his own mind and heart viz a viz his status in the Church. My point is and was, please respect his own right to choose his belonging to the Church. I have no way of knowing whether he has rejected the Church and his membership in it. I think it is presumptuous on the part of all who think they know his mind. Have you asked Kennedy and has he told you directly, "I am a Catholic"?

This I do know for sure: Christ and the Church are one. To love Christ is to love His Church. To love His Church is to love all that She teaches. No one sees the Father except through Christy. The Church posseses the fullness of the means of salvation.

Deacon Ed

I don't see attacks here personally on Ted Kennedy. WHAT I DO SEE ARE PEOPLE STANDING AGAINST HIS "PUBLIC POLICIES", THOSE THAT ARE MOST DEFINITELY SINFUL BY THE STANDARDS OF MOST CHRISTIAN DOMINATIONS. Why is it then that when someone tries to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, i.e. call a sin a sin, those who disagree, like to "gag" those who do so under the label of "charity", "kindness", don't judge his soul, etc. Would energies be better spent by working to save those slaughtered babies instead of defending the "undefendable".

I found this comment thread very interesting. I'll admit to feeling pulled back and forth on this issue myself. My only way to resolve this is the way Liz suggests: the distinction between the man and the sin. I wish him well in his illness, but continue to reject his rejection of Church teaching. My view of his dissent, and its impact on unborn lives, does not lead me to hate him or wish ill for him. He has his good qualities, as many on both side of the aisle attest -- those things should not be ignored. But there is this BIG THING, as many of the commentators point out, maybe more than one. Nonetheless, God forgives even the big things, and the time that Ted Kennedy has remaining will be his time of reckoning. Imagine the Senator himself reading this blog -- what could we say that might incline him toward a change of heart? Certainly not condemnation, which he heard loud and clear for many years. I say let's try something else: That's exactly what Liz Scalia has tried to do. Good for her!

One would think, then, that a couple of Catholics praying it could easily convert Ted Kennedy.

10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Fr. Joseph,
The vigor of your condemnation is scary and I think you might have stuck around to pick up a stone.

You pin the death of millions of babies on Ted Kennedy, but he is not individually responsible. We all are responsible. Could you or I have done more to promote life? That is the kind of examination of conscience that Jesus and Elizabeth are calling us to.

Or if we look at salvation passages in the scriptures we ar led to more questions....

'"Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"'


Drop the false prophet role and open your heart to the Gospel.

Yes BDK -

Jesus DID forgive Mary Magdalene BUT he did not let her off the hook, He said to her "go, sin no more"

On Theodosious the Great, St. Ambrose, Public Sin & Public Penance - Catholic Encyclopaedia:

Shortly after (AD 383), Maximus invaded Italy. Valentinian and his mother fled to Theodosius, who took up their cause, defeated the usurper, and put him to death. At this time Justina died, and Valentinian, by the advice of Theodosius, abjured Arianism and placed himself under the guidance of Ambrose, to whom he became sincerely attached.

It was during the prolonged stay of Theodosius in the West that one of most remarkable episodes in the history of the Church took place; the public penance inflicted by the Bishop and submitted to by the Emperor. The long-received story, set afoot by the distant Theodoret, which extols the Saint's firmness at the expense of his equally pronounced virtues of prudence and meekness - that Ambrose stopped the Emperor at the porch of the church and publicly upbraided and humiliated him - is shown by modern criticism to have been greatly exaggerated.

The emergency called into action every episcopal virtue. When the news reached Milan that the seditious Thessalonians had killed the Emperor's officials, Ambrose and the council of bishops, over which he happened to be presiding at the time, made an apparently successful appeal to the clemency of Theodosius. Great was their horror, when, shortly after Theodosius, yielding to the suggestions of Rufinose and other courtiers, ordered an indiscriminate massacre of the citizens, in which seven thousand perished.

In order to avoid meeting the blood-stained monarch or offering up the Holy Sacrifice in his presence, and, moreover, to give him time to ponder the enormity of a deed so foreign to his character, the Saint, pleading ill-health, and sensible that he exposed himself to the charge of cowardice, retired to the country, whence he sent a noble letter "written with my own hand, that thou alone mayst read it", exhorting the Emperor to repair his crime by an exemplary penance.

With "religious humility", says St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei., V, xxvi), Theodosius submitted; "and, being laid hold of by the discipline of the Church, did penance in such a way that the sight of his imperial loftiness prostrated made the people who were interceding for him weep more than the consciousness of offence had made them fear it when enraged". "Stripping himself of every emblem of royalty", says Ambrose in his funeral oration (c. 34), "he publicly in church bewailed his sin.

That public penance, which private individuals shrink from, an Emperor was not ashamed to perform; nor was there afterwards a day on which he did not grieve for his mistake." This plain narrative, without theatrical setting, is much more honourable both to the Bishop and his sovereign.

"Living a life like the Kennedy's is a burden that few have to endure, and I am glad that my shortfalls are not as public."

I am glad that my shortfalls are not public as well, but promoting death on such a scale as Kennedy and others is not a "shortfall". Leaving a young woman to die trapped in a car under water is not a "shortfall". Using bad language or coveting your neighbor's new Corvette is a "shortfall".

I will pray for Ted Kennedy's repentance and salvation, but I will NOT wax eloquently about his "service" to the country.

Yeah, public penances used to happen all the time; if they happened today that'd be great. They don't and the church doesn't require it. Moreover the church does not decide, nor can we, at what moment a true, heartful repentance MUST be made before we can "safely believe" in that repentance. It might happen within minutes of a death, or for all any of us know, in the infinitesimal moments between the penultimate breath and the last one - with no chances for "public" penance. The rest of the world will always have to wonder. Unsatisfying but there it is.

I don't think I ever said, "Now that he's dying, Ted is a wonderful guy, let's just forget everything and pray for his good." I'm not a "lalala" kind of girl. What I am saying and have been saying is "Kennedy is sick, dying; he's in need of God's mercy. My initial reaction was to pray for his family and shrug, but it will be better to pray for him, too." That the idea of praying for such a repentance should (for some) register abhorrence, not just "confusion" but abhorrence & condemnation, & charges of both heresy and of corruption so vast that only a few bishops (and apparently not even the pope) measure up to rigid expectations, is a little stunning.

Jesus said to the adulterous woman, "go and sin no more." But if she had sinned again what do you think he would have done? Would he have said, "now, look, I told you not to sin anymore; you did, so the heck with you. You see that cross over there? I'm going to carry it in a little while for everyone, but not for you. You'll have to carry your own public cross, now."

Re Mary Jo Kopeckne, we have no idea at all whether that has been confessed and repented and atoned for, but would a "public" penance have been enough? For some, I suspect not.

How does praying, heartfully and humbly, for the redemption of someone, even someone you cannot admire, equal Political Correctness (which I detest) or "letting him off the hook."

In fact, praying for his redemption does just the opposite; it hooks him, and reels him in.

Fishermen, remember?

Elizabeth -

I'm hopeful that many people, on this post, will be praying for Ted Kennedy's repentance as I am. However, in my opinion, it is not just "enough" to pray for his conversion; we must also speak out against the crimes he has committed in order not to lead other's astray. Because of his wealth & power, many people look to him for leadership! We can pray for Hitler too; but no doubt any reasonable person will certainly condemn him (Hitler)for the murder of millions of innocent Jews. I think that's the whole point of this post. Whether Kennedy has confessed or not, is nobody's business. BUT it is our responsibility to speak out when someone has committed crimes against the innocent. Do you understand "our" point of view???

Elizabeth,

It is not the praying that is the political correctness. It is the attitude that somehow everything he has done should just disappear and go away. Should we develop amnesia? Should we pretend that no wrongdoing has taken place??

Bridget, I never said people should not "speak out" against pro-abortion pols, etc

We speak out about how pro-abort pols scandalize the church, all the time, loudly and angrily. How effective that's been in the last 35 years is a good question.

You wrote: "it is not just "enough" to pray for his conversion; we must also speak out against the crimes he has committed in order not to lead other's astray. Because of his wealth & power, many people look to him for leadership!"

Is some of the firebreathing that's been posted here meant to edify the church and "not lead others astray?" THIS is how to turn hearts away from the scourge of abortion, with the furious rant? It's not how Mother Teresa did it.

Actually, it really IS enough to pray, if we're doing it humbly and with real love. One cannot control what "lessons" others will take away from Ted Kennedy's life by being loud and equating him with Hitler, who was an anti-Christ trying to obliterate the Chosen People.

Prayer, though, is something one can control and use; it has real power to effect genuine change, and it helps lead others long after they've stopped listening to the rant. Get everyone praying, and you're really doing something. Anyone can rant - that's easy.

We must speak out, of course, but HOW we speak out matters. We can recognize that Kennedy has not led an edifying life, that he has caused scandal to the church (which I did in my piece) while still maintaining some humility and mindfulness of our own propensity both to sin and give scandal to the church, or we can "speak out" by relentlessly hammering home the vile, reprehensible sinfulness of this one man and then adding, almost as an afterthought, "oh, yeah, and, of course, let's pray for his soul," as though prayers wrapped in rage are what we're called to.

I happen to think the first way is better, but we can agree to disagree.

My schedule won't allow a play-all-day here, so I will take my leave, and take my chances. Someday we'll all die, and have our turn before God, and he can ask us about it, and we can opine away and tell Jesus just what we think and thought about everything and why we prayed - or didn't. And maybe we'll let Jesus get a word in, edgewise, and let Him tell us what He thought and thinks. :-)

When did I say that, Kathy? If you would please, point out to me where I said that? Because I am becoming a little weary of people mischaracterizing what I've written and boiling it all down to "we should have amnesia and pretend no wrongdoing has taken place?"

You know, about 10,000 words have been written in this thread - it's easy to lose track of what I actually wrote in my piece. Maybe give it a re-read, and when you do, please look for that place where I said we should just hold hands, sing kumbaya and trala through the fields because Ted Kennedy is dying and we should "just have amnesia".

The other side of "we should have amnesia and pretend no wrongdoing has taken place" is, of course, that we should recall all of that but remember God's mercy and our own sinfulness.

Here is the question, Kathy: as believing and sinful Catholics, where should our emphasis be, On Ted's sins or on God's mercy?

Really, this is not just about charity but humility, too. Do we do more good for everyone by focusing on Ted's failings or on the hope for redemption and fullness of mercy?

But I don't have time to keep saying it. Have a good one.

One really last thing and then I do have to run, Kathy you wrote:

"It is the attitude that somehow everything he has done should just disappear and go away."

Again, that is NOT my attitude, but something did strike me in that sentence..."everything he has done should just disappear and go away."

Well, yes. That's how it works. There is still temporal punishment, there is purgatory, but "you have rescued me from the pit of destruction, when you cast my sins behind your back." Isaiah 38:17

Thank God for His mercy, because clearly if it were up to us, we'd all be consigning each other to hell! :-)

Elizabeth,

The problem has not been endless rant for 35 years, but the deafening silence. Why are the anti-abortion efforts grassroots, with little or no priest or bishop presence or direction? Where are our voices from on high?

THESE are the questions our poor faithful are left struggling with. So, yet another piece that "puts things in perspective" when looking at the 35 year free pass the Senator has already received, can be for some the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

However, we are being encouraged by a kind of maturation process happening today ...

While Pope John Paul the Great took a gradualist approach (as did Moses), we are seeing so many wonderful signs that the promised land is at hand.

This is from aa article at Catholic Answers:

Dissent and heterodoxy are being recognized as the dead ends that they are; their proponents are aging, and they are not attracting new adherents. In time, they will likely wither. While the struggle is by no means over, I think we can say that the tide is beginning to turn: As the dissenters fade away and diminish in influence, they are being replaced by younger, wholeheartedly Catholic bishops, priests, and laypeople who will set the direction for the next generation. In this respect, a wise saying commends itself: Many times, the solution to the Church’s problems is found in the funeral rite.

Hang on everyone, our 40 years in the desert will soon be over and Joshua (Pope Benedict XVI) will get us into the promised land.

Elizabeth: Taken to its extreme, the position you are staking out takes this form: "Abortion shouldn't bother you Christians because, if you're right, the babies are with God, anyway. They're better off than if they'd been born."

Yes--our sins are as a drop of water in the ocean of God's mercy.

But our business in this life is to "hunger and thirst for justice." Any understanding of "God's mercy" that veers toward "Big deal--it'll all come out in the wash at the Last Judgment, anyway" is a distorted understanding.

No pro-lifer on this board has said Kennedy should "rot in hell" or anything of the kind. All I have been saying is, Let the Church stop collaborating in the Big Lie that Kennedy is a practicing Catholic.

Kennedy should be treated like an ex-Catholic. Which means, it should be made clear that he is NOT a good Catholic, a practicing Catholic. There is no other way for the Church to call him to repentance. There is no other way for the Church to avoid collaborating in the scandal that Kennedy and all the other pro-abortion ex-Catholics have been perpetrating.

Almost 20 years ago, Bishop Austin Vaughan of New York publicly warned Mario Cuomo that he was "in danger" of going to hell because of his promotion of abortion. Cuomo spent several days professing to be shocked that "a bishop would damn me to hell."

Nobody here has "consigned" Kennedy to hell. That would be sinful. We have been voicing a warning that Kennedy has been living like a man who is on the way to hell. That is one of the spiritual works of mercy.

Wait and see. Kennedy will be insulated from any priest who might call him to repentance. Only Democratic Party activists in clerical collars have a chance of getting near a Kennedy. That is one of the dangers of great wealth and power.

He WILL have the typical Kennedy funeral. The collaboration of the hierarchy with the pro-abortion ex-Catholics will continue unabated.

That's not true.

Catholic funeral rites can be celebrated for baptized non-Catholics, provided that this is not contrary to their will and provided that their own minister is unavailable. Their own minister is considered unavailable if they have not participated in their own denomination for some time.

Likewise, non-practicing Catholics can also receive a Catholic funeral. And, those who have died by suicide can also receive one.

As well documented in the above posts, the faithful are to judge actions and let God judge the soul. I have absolutely no respect for the public contributions by Senator Kennedy, but as a fellow sinner and baptized Catholic, I pray that he repents of his unapologetic promotion of abortion and other pro-death positions.

May Jesus have mercy on his and all of our souls.

Elizabeth -

Maybe you are still on this post, maybe not. However, I would like to add a final note to MY posting. You subtly "chatise" those of who are not in Kennedy's corner for being "nice" or "charitable" to him. I think YOU are "judging" people here when you say and I quote "if it were up to us, we'd all be consigning each other to Hell". Also, in a subtle way you are judging people here when you say "anyone can rant and rave - THAT EASY" No Elizabeth, most of us are here for 40 million reasons and TED KENNEDY is not one of them! I'm sorry you think we have an "ego" problem, trying to win an arguement with you. Sorry you feel that way!

If the bishops had been united with the Roman Catholic Church for the past 35 years, preaching clearly that pro-abortion "Catholics" are not Catholics, denying such "Catholics" Communion, denying them funerals, making sure that the Catholic people could not fall into the bizarre error of thinking that killing babies is a "right" that Catholics must protect and defend--THEN I would let the death of Ted Kennedy pass without a word.

But the bishops have done NONE of those things. The Catholic people HAVE been drifting away into the "Kennedy-Cuomo-Kerry-Pelosi Church of America." The Archbishops of Washington and Boston are on the record: They continue to choose to disobey Canon Law (can. 915) rather than displease pro-abortion Catholics.

There would be no pent-up rage about Ted Kennedy, if the successive Archbishops of Washington and Boston had not shown, unanimously, since at least 1973, that, set against money and power, the babies, the Church, and the truth count for nothing. Bishops of the type we have accomplish only this: enfeebling the Church and helping to raise the Church's enemies to the pinnacles of power. We have the kind of bishops who spend a lifetime piling up the sticks for the fires on which their successors, and their successors' people, will be burned.

Yes. God is Mercy. But Quietism is not Catholicism.

Well said, Fr. Joseph!

In your post about being fishers of men you asked how praying equalled political correctness? That is where I got it from.

To All Commentators on This Site:

Please read Preparation For Death by St. Alphonsus, especially Ms Scalia. Please note the sections under the chapter "The Death Of The Sinner:" "The sinner will seek God at death, but he will not find Him;" "Anguish of the dying sinner." Also consider the sections under the chapter "Sentiments of a Dying Christian Who Has Been Careless about The Duties of Religion and Has Thought but Little about Death:" "Sad State of the Worldling at Death;" "Desire of the Worldling at Death;" "Tardy Regrets of a Dying Person."

St. Alphonsus, a saint and Doctor of the Church, does point out the great difficulty of one who has not been faithful to the teachings of the Catholic Church to suddenly turn on a dime and seek repentance as death is near. Perhaps it will be necessary for a living saint to pray and sacrifice so that this can happen for Kennedy as it did for Pranzini by St. Therese of Lisieux.

I have already prayed for Kennedy's soul, and I will continue to do so. Nevertheless, he has been one of the ones responsible for the continuing holocaust of the unborn. Since he has given public scandal in this regard, then it seems only fitting that there should be a public confirmation of his repentance--if such happens--in order to prevent another great scandal, namely, a full Catholic funeral.

Perhaps Ms Scalia could get this volume into Ted Kennedy's hands.

While I stand among those praying for Sen Kennedy's eventual repentance before he meets his Maker, I also am not afraid to call his public life a life of unmitigated evil. Thanks, Fr Joseph, for speaking the truth. I have lived in Massachusetts since 1997 and I have seen the immense magnitude of his evil policies at work in this wretched state.

He does not deserve a Catholic funeral unless he makes said repentance and public repudiation of his life of evil.

Given the bitterness, cynicism, disenchantment, resentment and general rage bristling in some of these posts, I'd say there's one group that needs our prayers just as much as the Kennedys.

It's our priests.

Fr Joseph: "There would be no pent-up rage about Ted Kennedy, if the successive Archbishops of Washington and Boston...etc."

So, your rage at the bishops justifies all this? Quietism may not be Catholicism, but HOW we speak out still MATTERS. How we speak out eventually ends up saying much more about ourselves than it does about the one we're speaking out against.

Kathy: "In your post about being fishers of men you asked how praying equaled political correctness? That is where I got it from."

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you found me equating prayer (in a positive way) with political correctness? You could not have. I would never have written that; I could only have been reflecting someone's comments back to them. If instead you mean that you found my "let's have amnesia and pretend it all never happened" remark there, no I don't think so, because I never said it, except to quote some else (was it you, I can't remember) who was mischaracterizing what I said.

:-) I feel a little like Clevinger on trial in Catch-22, constantly testifying to what I actually said, and having people tell me I said something else, or suggesting that I "meant" something else, which is just odd. So, like Clevinger, let me take a big breath and say - again - I ALWAYS never said that we should just ignore the sins and scandals of Ted Kennedy's poor life. I just said that we should look at ourselves and our own sins to find the means to pray heartfully for him.

At some point, I have to consider that there is willful misunderstanding going on, here.

Bill Foley - I'm not acquainted with Ted Kennedy so I can't slip that volume into his hands. St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church who has certainly added to the Deposit of Faith, but that deposit is a collective, and I don't think that particular writing has been rendered definitive on the issue...but perhaps I am wrong?

Bridget: "You subtly "chastise" those of who are not in Kennedy's corner..."

I'm not chastising; I've been exceedingly careful to make sure I include myself in all of this. Again, if you re-read my piece, it started with me ADMITTING my imperfect prayers for Kennedy and feeling SHAME for them. I guess I'll just have to keep repeating that.

Bridget: "I think YOU are "judging" people here when you say and I quote "if it were up to us, we'd all be consigning each other to Hell"."

For crying out loud, Bridget, there was a SMILEY after that; it was a JOKE, meant to lighten up the tensions around here. In fact, I've tried to be as civil as I know how in this back-and-forth.

Bridget: Also, in a subtle way you are judging people here when you say "anyone can rant and rave - THAT EASY"

No, I'm not. You should come read my blog sometime where I talk about how easy it is to rant & to be cynical. One of the discoveries I've made in life is that those things ARE easy. It's much more difficult to NOT rant. How might I have discovered that? Maybe because the rants come way too easily to me, too. I write what I know, and - as I have said here ad nauseam, I know that (as St. Paul said) I am all that I hate, and capable of great sin. Which is why my imperfect prayers for Kennedy shamed me. I'm no better than he is.

Bridget: "most of us are here for 40 million reasons and TED KENNEDY is not one of them!"

That's too bad. Those innocent souls don't need our prayers as much as he does.

Bridget: I'm sorry you think we have an "ego" problem, trying to win an argument with you. Sorry you feel that way!

When did I say that, please? Please when did I call anyone here an egoist or suggest that egos are coming into play? I would like to know that, because I would heartfully apologize for it. I don't think I did it.

I'm not trying to "win an argument" with anyone. Earlier you asked if I could not "see" your side...but I happen to believe we're all on the same side. Am I wrong?

How does praying, heartfully and humbly, for the redemption of someone, even someone you cannot admire, equal Political Correctness (which I detest) or "letting him off the hook."

That is what you said. I never stated that you said it in a positive way. You asked me where I got it from and there it is..... from your posting "Fishermen, remember." I assume you were referring to my posting about political correctness. You wrongly interpreted my posting as equating praying with political correctness which is not what I said. The political correctness that I talked about was the idea that everything Kennedy has done should just disappear and go away.

I think that you were caught by surprise that so many would disagree with what you wrote. To call it willful misunderstanding on the part of the people who disagree is really not fair.

Kathy, I was not "caught by surprise" by the reactions. I've been taken to the woodshed by Inside Catholic readers before, and I knew there would be some who really didn't want to hear it and others who wouldn't get it and others who would just disagree.

Btw, the "politically correct" bit started here, with your response to Fr. Joseph.



And no, I'm sorry...earlier I admitted I may have used a poorly chosen word to you, but as to "willful misunderstanding," I think it's a fair thing to wonder about when I've had to - over and over again - restate that I did not, in any way, suggest that Kennedy's sins should be "ignored" or whatever it is I'm supposed to have said.

You may be right that it takes "courage" to judge and question. I think those things are pretty easy, as I've said. My suggestion that we find a willingness to pray for Kennedy through an examination of conscience within ourselves is a little more difficult, I think.

But no, you can rest easy. I was never surprised that people disagreed with me. Their TONES...yes, sometimes surprising! :-)

I agree with Dcn. Greg that it's "all about mercy." Furthermore, if we could all just imagine the impact it would have on the culture, the election, and the world if Ted Kennedy, by OUR PRAYERS for the grace to repent, denounces all of his pro "death" agenda.

A contrite Ted would be not only one of the most powerful witnesses to the healing power of the Catholic Faith and God's mercy, but would also be one of the most powerful forces for the culure of "life."

To be honest, I not only exprect it, I predict it! For starters, Ted had a very devout Mother Rose, whom I'm sure prayed her heart out for all of her kids' salvation. It was no coincidence that when Bobby was shot, he was immediately surrounded by a group of people praying the rosary around him, only subsequent to receive last rites at Good Sam hospital in LA.

Great sinners often make the greatest saints. I predict Ted's finest hour is ahead of him. God's mercy is bigger than all of us, and all of our sins. Ted will shine bright, trust me. The Anchoress once wrote that the great "leveler" was pain and suffering. Many things look very different when we are staring death in the face.

I am anything but a "fan of Ted", but I'm praying my heart out for him, and most of all, trusting in the mercy of God, who wishes ALL souls saved.

Klaire

Great post!

Klaire -

That was nice, Hope you're right about Kennedy. God DOES work in mysterious ways. Being Irish Catholic, it gives me no pleasure in having to oppose Kennedy's politics. We, in Ireland, were very proud when John F. became President. We considered him "one of us". He was my hero and THEN the house started falling down!

The 99th post got it all just right! :-) Yay Klaire!

...and in defense of Mrs. Scalia, the key issue to me, is Redemption. How can a pro-Abortion politician with such a record as Senator Kennedy be reconciled to the Church? I agree with Elizabeth, that a simple statement of apology wouldn't be enough for many in the Pro-life movement...Why do I say that? Because the horror of Abortion and passion of the issue can cloud people's judgement. I'm not judging anyone on here, I'm offering a gentle rebuke to some of my more passionate brothers and sisters who in their zeal for defending the unborn have forgotten that Senator Kennedy, too is a Catholic and a human being, albeit a very wayward one and one in a great need of prayer and reconciling. I value ALL human life, and that includes Ted Kennedy's. If somebody has an issue with that, I could really care less. I'm not an apologist for the pro-Abortion policies he has championed, I find them abhorrent and inconcievable, but how can Senator Kennedy "atone" for what he has done? What would begin to cover it? You see, this is the danger...attaching conditions on Forgiveness. To the priests out there, how many deathbed confessions have you done? How many who were truly, deeply sorry...and could not atone in this world because the opportunity was lost? Are those truly sorrowful souls in Hell now? Or perhaps in for a long stretch in Purgatory....I'd like to believe the latter...

...the pro-life movement has nothing to hang its head about. Bernard Nathanson, Norma McCorvey, Carol Everett, and hundreds and hundreds of abortionists, abortion clinic workers, abortion activists, and uncountable thousands of aborted women--have found mercy, welcome, and friendship in the pro-life movement and in the Catholic Church.

Name any pro-abortion Catholic politician who has converted. Where is the pro-abortion Catholic politician that the bishops' policy of groveling and flattery has won back to the Catholic Faith?

I can name Hugh Carey, who came back to the Church and condemned his own pro-abortion record, after he left public office.

If there is ONE pro-abortion Catholic who has ever become pro-life while in office, I have never heard of him/her.

I think the reaction to your article, Elizabeth, is a sign that many Catholics (rightly, in my view) perceive Ted Kennedy no longer as a member of the family, a brother, a "black sheep," but as an external enemy. Yes, one who, like Hitler and Stalin, was baptized, but only in that most rarefied, theological respect a "brother" or "member of the Church." Forty years of naked aggression is a long, long, time. And the gospel requires TWO confrontations with a gravely erring member of the Church--one in private, one with witnesses--before he is to be treated as an outsider. Ted Kennedy has never been extended that MERCY by the hierarchy. Rather, they have enabled his self-deception and the deception of the laity.

Would his genuine repentance, and return to the Church, be welcomed? Yes.

But the upcoming Kennedy funeral and eulogies will NOT be a sign of such a return. Precisely because Kennedy will be insulated from any authentic Catholic clergy, the likelihood of a sincere confession is minuscule. The public rites for Kennedy will NOT be "the outward sign of an inward grace." They will be the loathsome self-advertisement of the ongoing putrefaction in the hierarchy and clergy.

I knew that was where the politically correct statement came from.....I just thought you were misunderstanding my intent. And I didn't think it was willful:)

"Name any pro-abortion Catholic politician who has converted."

Don't flood this thread with answers.

The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is intrinsically evil.

Mr Kennedy chose to ignore the teachings of the Church. He vehemently supported abortion for decades. Apparently he "knew" better than the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church.

Those Catholics who knew his record on abortion and voted for him anyway are by this very fact complicit in the sin of abortion, and should be ashamed of themselves.

I agree we should pray for Mr Kennedy and those like him. And we should also admonish them in their sinful actions.
-Let us not forget that the Church teaches that one of the seven Spiritual works of mercy is to admonish the sinner.

So, pray for him and those like him and at the same time condemn their sinful actions.

""Name any pro-abortion Catholic politician who has converted."

"Don't flood this thread with answers."
--------------
I hear you...it is hard not to be sarcastic.
If only this matter of pro-abortion Catholic politicians was not so absolutely tragic....especially for the millions of babies who have been ripped in pieces from their mothers wombs since Rowe v Wade.
May God have mercy on those who in their ignorance and fear really don't know better.
But a well educated "Catholic" politician? It is truly sickening...

What you say is true. However, it in no way changes the fact that our duty as Christians is to pray for their conversion.

According to some on this post, it's more important to be nice to Ted Kennedy than to have compassion for the babies torn from their mother's womb and in many instances have their brains pierced with an instrument to cause their death, all without the benefit of pain medication and all for the convenience of society. Ted Kennedy gets a pat on the back for doing good for the handicapped, the poor, the sick without insurance. - good for him. But first, one has to let life LIVE before one can maintain the "quality" of life. Let's hope Ted has a pain-free death, unlike the many he CONDEMNED to death in such a gruesome way.

...I don't think anybody has said that being "nice" to Ted Kennedy is more important than sympathy for the unborn. That is an absurd statement. What I have been saying, is that the possibility for Redemption is there for all, even someone like Senator Kennedy. And that we can't forget Charity and Mercy, even and especially for someone like Ted Kennedy. This is all dependent on whether or not he repents, and he may not. I don't know that for certain, and neither does anybody else here. I haven't forgotten the victims of Abortion, and being against the Death Penalty, I haven't forgotten the victims of the Murderers who are condemned either, though some in their emotional responses would say that I was doing exactly that.

Maybe he will, maybe he won't (repent). All we know for certain is that he will leave death & destruction in his wake. When he passes over to the other side, perhaps to greet him, face to face, will be Mary Joe and a mountain of dead babies, torn limb to limb, asking for an explanation why he had a hand in it. hmm... we can only be concerned with what's happening NOW, something that's visible and real; NOT whether he might or might not repent. That "might" take place in the future, however,our task is to deal with the here & now, e.g. saving babies and speaking out.

Elizabeth - I found your article both moving and humbling. I think you wrote a profound piece of mystery ... it opened my eyes and my heart.

I thank you for that.

As a human being, a sinner, who struggles with the call to holiness on a daily basis, I look for opportunities to keep it simple, and to find light for the path.

Love seems to be the lamp that is always lit.

Deacon Greg has shown me through much of his writings, that wrestling with the contradictions of being human is a worthy pursuit. It seems that St. Augustine also felt this way.

I can't and won't respond to "Fr. Joseph" or "kathy" or those who continue to cry condemnation here. To engage in that would be to turn my back on the God in my heart.

I will say that your words do speak of love and of holiness, and make me feel that The Lord is breathing life into the world through those words.

Thank you.

Was Senator Kennedy. We must always defend the rights of the unborn, but the human heart is big enough for both the unborn and hope for the repentance of sinners.

You are "assuming" that those who speak out about T. Kennedy's abortion legislation do not have mercy and/or charity for him in his illness. However, trying to make people feel guilty or to silence people in not expressing their views on the heinous crimes of abortion, doesn't work. We know now that by remaining silent and instead, contemplating on forgiveness & mercy, has allowed the likes of Poleosi, Kerry, Kennedy and many others to reach the pinnacle of power to promote their culture of death. Mr. Kennedy wrote his own history, nobody made it up . In fact, I'm sure he'll be surrounded by his loved ones at the hour of his death to give him love and companionship, pain-free, filled with medicine that will help make him feel more comfortable, AND at his splendid funeral there will be all sorts of important people who will tell stories about what a wonderful champion of the poor he was, etc, etc.. Did those babies, whose death he legislated, have the same chance and or comfort near THEIR deaths? I think not... just before their death they were in a sterile room, torn to pieces, and then thrown into the disposal can. Perhaps, among them there was a future Pope or a MichaelAngelo. We'll never know- thanks to Ted Kennedy and the likes.

This man, and is family, are a pathetic example of what it means to be Catholic. They have long expressed interest in their own personal gain at the expense of others and in contradiction to Catholic teaching. Each and every member of the family that supports abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research, birth control, and all other social items that are condemned by the Catholic Church should be denied communion with the Church and shamed in the public by the faith.

These people do not get a pass because one of them is sick or because of the trials that the family has gone through. These things do not justify a lifetime of wickedness in contradiction to Church teaching.

That said, I pray for Ted and his family. We must all pray for those that are afflicted with not only sickness...but sin. I have prayed for this family for many years in the hope that they might embrace their faith rather than seek their own personal glory. This prayer must continue and should be carried out by all.

That said, there is no consolation for wickedness without repent. This family and those that make it up have long been, and continue to be, unrepentant in their pursuit of their own glory regardless of the faith of their baptism. This cannot and should not be tolerated by the Church or by the people that they represent. In short, they do not get a pass because one of them is sick.

May God bless the family, turn it to right, and may God have mercy on Ted's unrepentant soul.

This man, and is family, are a pathetic example of what it means to be Catholic. They have long expressed interest in their own personal gain at the expense of others and in contradiction to Catholic teaching. Each and every member of the family that supports abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research, birth control, and all other social items that are condemned by the Catholic Church should be denied communion with the Church and shamed in the public by the faith.

These people do not get a pass because one of them is sick or because of the trials that the family has gone through. These things do not justify a lifetime of wickedness in contradiction to Church teaching.

That said, I pray for Ted and his family. We must all pray for those that are afflicted with not only sickness...but sin. I have prayed for this family for many years in the hope that they might embrace their faith rather than seek their own personal glory. This prayer must continue and should be carried out by all.

That said, there is no consolation for wickedness without repent. This family and those that make it up have long been, and continue to be, unrepentant in their pursuit of their own glory regardless of the faith of their baptism. This cannot and should not be tolerated by the Church or by the people that they represent. In short, they do not get a pass because one of them is sick.

May God bless the family, turn it to right, and may God have mercy on Ted's unrepentant soul.

The article written by Elizabeth Scalia reflects eloquently on the ‘white-hot crucible’ in which Ted Kennedy and his family find themselves in the opening and closing of her piece. She is a wonderful stylist, verily.

But let us not be swayed by style…

In mentioning the senator’s <i>‘non-partisan kindness toward his congressional colleagues’</i> and <i>‘his willingness to press an acquaintance for the benefit of a child in dire straits,‘</i> she gives us a nice image we can all feel good about.

She contrasts this image of a good deed against those who supposedly have had their <i>‘normally generous instincts stifled by dislike, or so discomforted by his pro-abortion positions as to withhold natural expressions of empathy…’</i> Then she states the opinion/proposition that <i>‘the Kennedys are neither holier nor more wicked than other families…’</i>

What’s Elizabeth Scalia’s point here? I believe it summarizes a relativist’s bent on the matter which is a very dangerous way of thinking.

Then in a passive-aggressive undertow she takes pro-life Catholics to task by saying that <i>‘it temps others to presume knowledge of the state of souls’… </i>and <i>‘to assume an arrogance that may or may not exit.’</i>

This reflects the false premise that we are judging Ted Kennedy’s soul – This is ridiculous! And is nothing more than a ‘straw-man.’

No one is judging his soul or damning him to hell for his <i>‘raucous sins’.</i> At worst, people are judging his actions, merely calling for his repentance and courageously pointing out the truth.

Those who support Elizabeth Scalia, love to throw out the verses of scripture that warn against <i>‘judging others’</i> and <i>‘casting stones’</i> and using these inappropriately to try to silence dissenters to their ‘righteous’ position on the matter.

I’m sorry the last I checked no one was passing judgment on Senator Kennedy’s soul or throwing any stones his way. Last I heard, casting admonishments was a spiritual act of mercy. Being silent on grave matters is one of the nine ways we can be an accessory to another’s sin.

Yes we should all pray for Ted Kennedy’s recovery and for his conversion with Charity and Love – absolutely. But we cannot be silent regarding his willful persistence in sin as well as rightfully calling his standing in the Church into question.

Cindy,

Oh, please, do not ever respond to Fr. Joseph or me. I certainly wouldn't want you to "turn your back on God" now, would I????:)LOL!!

Mark,
YOUR words make perfect sense to me. I am glad you can see through our "condemnation" of Kennedy.
Thank you!

Fr. Joseph,
I STILL agree with you no matter what some others say about both of us:) And I know, in spite of what some self-righteously proclaim, that you "struggle with the call to holiness" on a daily basis. I have read so many of your postings on other topics to know that this is the case!! God bless you! Please pray for me as I try to overcome my "ease" with questioning and judgments:)

Mark -

Well said. We will not be SILENCED by those who "think" we are not mericful towards or don't pray for Kennedy in his terminal illness. I speak for myself and I know how I FEEL! Elizabeth is a wonderful writer, she writes eloquently about any topic concerning the Church AND I feel sure she is a very compassionate person. The activist group "Obama for Catholics" who try to silence pro-life supporters, under the guise of them being not being "compassionate- enough -Catholics", etc. etc.,also accuse some Catholics for not adhering to the Church's social doctrine by it's lack of compassion in not supporting abortion rights. We need to speak out for life and AGAINST those who oppose it, even those who are dying. Kennedy wrote his own legacy. The gag thing doesn't work anymore! Remember, silence has not helped the Church in many cases, In fact, think of the child abuse scandal and the Bishop's silence surrounding it in order to protect their power. (read Russell Shaw's latest book on "secrecy" and how toxic it has been to the Church in grave matters). Most likely Obama will become our next President, thanks to the millions of Catholics voting for him under the "compassion for the poor" label. How about compassion for the many aborted beautiful babies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxQiIzS49D8

I think Ms. Scalia may have been attempting to balance her own feelings of dismay over Ted Kennedy's life and actions versus her understandable compassion for his illness, and his standing (along with all of humanity) as a sinner. My sister died of the same disease, so I understand fully what kind of suffering this type of illness engenders.

That said, the corruption of the Catholic Church's American hierarchy has been nothing short of breathtaking. It has allowed poor sinners like Ted Kennedy to be comfortable in their sins while leading many others down the path to perdition. It has given millions of Catholics the idea that abortion and birth control are acceptable. I understand Fr. Joseph's naked anger. I think Jesus expressed that type of anger against the Pharisees on several occasions (in the temple and before it).

It is well and good to make a distinction between a sin and a sinner, but sometimes the sinner will not be parted from his sin. We can and should pray that Sen. Kennedy repents before his death and that God's mercy wins out.

While Ted Kennedy may express many fine qualities and has undoubtedly managed to do some good while in office, the evil he has helped to loose upon unborn babies and others caught up in the vortex of abortion/stem cell, etc., cannot seriously be compared. I'm sure even Judas performed good deeds and expressed some fabulous qualities, but he was roundly and rightly condemned for his deed, as are any number of Biblical characters (King Saul, Ananias and Sapphira, etc). Justice is the twin of mercy, and Christians need to have a mature understanding in order to rightly discern the proper balance between the two.

Bridget and Gretchen,

Excellent!

Fr. Joseph couldn't be more right. Not only in terms of Canon Law, but in fulfilling his duty as a teacher. Denying someone a Catholic Funeral does not condemn them to hell as their particular judgment is already complete; however, it tells the community that the deceased died in manifest sin that was not repented of manifestly. To give someone like Ted a Catholic Funeral is to say to the community that "His life was one of friendship with Christ"

Don't forget the nature of the Church: One, Holy, and Apostolic. Christ said 'As the Father has sent Me, so I send you' 'Those who reject you, reject Me and those who reject Me, reject the One who sent Me'. This is one of the bases for the Church's authority. So someone who openly, adamantly, and repeatedly rejects the Church's authority does the same to the Father. That is the very essence of sin, rejecting God.

His salvation is purely in the hands of the Lord God, of that there is no doubt. However, the spiritual welfare of millions is in the immediate hands of the clergy. How are the faithful served by a false teaching that a manifest and unrepentant sinner died in God’s friendship?

On to his rant against the “toadying Judas-priest” and the bishops. Brilliant. What greater sin can a priest (or deacon or bishop) commit than false teaching? Admonishing the Sinner is one of the spiritual works of mercy, and sometimes harsh language is needed. Remember Christ used the terms ‘whitened sepulchers’, ‘blind-guides’, ‘viper’s brood’, and not exactly as compliments.

It’s hard to get to heaven, and not everyone will get there. The best that the clergy can do is teach us, and sometimes that includes pointing out bad examples.

Kathy, Bridget what a whacky combination of passive-aggressive and aggressive tag-teaming. I don't see anyone here trying to "silence" ("SILENCE") you but I think Scalia made a good point that how we say things ends up saying a lot more about us than our words.

But the worst thing I've read here is Mark's straw man post which tries to be a smartass exposition but ends up being a straw man itself by conveniently not mentioning those parts of the essay where the writer talks about her own struggles and how she got past them, through looking at her own sins. Ignore that and you can pretend it means anything you want it to mean actually does sound like willful misunderstanding.

Yeah, you guys make the church look goooood.

I NEVER said someone was trying to silence me. As far as commenting in support of someone else, I do believe it is not forbidden. Have you read eveyrhing that I posted? The only person other than Kennedy that I criticized in a sarcastic way was Cindy. That is because she said if she responded to me or Fr. Joseph she would be "turning her back on the God in her heart." You don't think that is a bit over the top????

We can pray for Ted Kennedy, but we can also "admonish the sinner". To be silent to his face is tantamount to complicity in his sins! "It is not charity to confirm someone in their sin," as Fr. John Corapi said.

Jack - I do recall the titled article was about TED KENNEDY and that's what we were writing on... NOT on the personalities of the people writing on this post which you seem to be attacking. It seems you don't like to hear what they have to say, hence your attack!

I didn't leave out "her struggles" out of convenience. I left them out because it wasn't germane to my point. I focused on aspects of her writing with which I believe were problematic and appeared to be the spark that led to some of the counter-point comments here to speak up, including myself.
I'm afraid your characterization is a non-sequitur.

By the way, Jack, what is your point with respect to your sarcastic comment: “Yeah, you guys make the church look goooood.” [sic]?

Typo: Commentators not Comments here to speak up.

And ONE MORE THINGS JACK, does your last posting make you look like a good Catholic or your Church look good. You don't seem to have the charity of accepting someone's else different point of view! How mature!

...it is identical to the sort of emotional fervor I hear when I speak out against the Death Penalty. My opposition to Capital Punishment DOESN'T mean I forget about the victims of murderers, it means that more death does not serve those who were murdered. Spewing vitrol about Ted Kennedy IF he is about to die does NOTHING to undo the harm Abortion has caused. I am not saying at all you shouldn't speak out about his record. But I refuse to apologize for taking the higher road and not joining the "I hope he rots in Hell" chorus, which some of the rhetoric skates awfully close to...saying things like "He was an abortion loving son of a bitch, He shouldn't have a Catholic funeral, etc etc.."and the like, and then adding "oh and I'm praying for him" is disingenous. Right is Right, and Wrong is Wrong.

You go, Bridget!! I will probably be hanged for offering that supportive remark:)

David W,

No one here said, "He was an abortion loving son of a bitch."

No one even used the word 'bitch' save your misquotation above. Who's being disingenuous? I think that would be you in this case.

I said saying things LIKE...blank. The uber-hostile remarks towards the man on this thread certainly take the tone of that statement, if not the words. It is very disingenous to rip the man up and down like that and then add that they're praying for him, much like pulling out the Mentos when you do something stupid. For the record, I don't like the man...I don't like his politics...heck, I don't even like his taste in ties...and my response when he does go will be muted, at best. My whole point in this entire thread, has been that everyone deserves a chance at mercy, even Ted Kennedy. I think a few people on this thread and elsewhere are allowing their emotions over the horror of Abortion to cloud their thinking and push the limits of charity. I brought up the Death Penalty twice before because its the same raw emotional response I get from people when I argue against the Death Penalty...I get accused of forgetting about the victims of murderers, that I am showing more sympathy for the murderer than for the victims, etc etc...all of which is not true. I know Ted Kennedy championed policies that allowed the murder of the unborn to continue....I KNOW THAT. Abortion is an abomination, but I refuse to give up on Ted Kennedy either, or any other Sinner who has even a small chance for Redemption or that he will show Contrition before his Death. Some people might say thats foolish, or naive....I say its the only reasonable response, given my own wretched state and that we all merit Hell.

David,

If Ted Kennedy asked for mercy - I would be surprised, if not shocked, that any single person on this thread would not grant him mercy, if in fact any of us were in such a position to grant mercy. And not one of us, if we were to have the power, would withhold saving him from what ails him.

We are all Catholics, that's what we do, that is who we are. We would offer our forgiveness, if he ever asked for it - we Catholics are big on Forgiveness.

I think you judgment of many of us is a bit harsh – ironically.

Mark,

Don't you just love it when someone accuses you of all kinds of hostile remarks and says you are being disingenuous and then says something along the lines of "oh, well, we're all such sinners and I am the biggest one?" It's kind of like they get their hostilities all out against you but then try to soften it all by saying they are the sinner. The accusation is that we are tearing Teddy up and then saying we are praying for him. How disingenuous! I think really we were just giving another point of view. THEN, we are told we are stupid and wrong and merciless and on and on and on but oh, don't worry they are sinners, too. Huh? Is it just me?

I think your point about mercy is excellent. If Teddy asked for forgiveness I would be willing to bet that we would all be at the celebratory banquet!! I'll bring the dessert!:)

Kathy,

Indeed, it can be rather frustrating. One of my biggest pet peeves is when someone jumps to some rather misguided conclusion or tries to read something into what I am saying.

I'm not one to nuance. I'm a pretty straight shooter. Perhaps, at times, I don't communicate clearly and this can cause problems, verily.

Many people cannot have healthy debates without letting their emotions get the best of them. It happens all too often - whether you’re a conservative or a liberal or a moderate.

I guess it's part of our fallen nature.

Iesu, Rex gloriae, miserere nobis!

To All the Commentators on This Blog,

I believe Ms Scalia made light of the writings of Saint Alphonsus. He is a saint; therefore, the gifts of the Holy Spirit were in full bloom in his soul, especially wisdom. He is also a Doctor of the Church, which gives an added stamp of approval to his teachings. He is very clear that it is extremely difficult for one who has not lived according the the will of Jesus Christ and according to the moral teachings of His Church to suddenly repent upon the approach of death.

Saint Alphonsus is not teaching that this is impossible, but he is drawing from his priestly experience and from the experience of the Mystical Body of Christ. I gave the opinion that it will take a great sacrifice and much prayer from a saintly Catholic or from many holy Catholics to bring God's mercy to Ted Kennedy. I based this upon the example of Saint Therese of Lisieux who prayed for the salvation of Pranzini, who had murdered two or three people during a robbery. She asked for an sign from God that her prayers and sacrifices did effect a transformation. God answered her when Pranzini kissed a crucifix three times before losing his head on the scaffold.

We must not make the mistake that God's mercy will be there for one at the end no matter what kind of life one leads. Saint Paul said that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling, and all of the saints and spiritual masters have urged us to pray for perseverance and especially for the grace of final perseverance.

Will there be enough prayer and sacrifice to cause Kennedy to repent and convert? Let us hope so.

Bill Foley

A very wise man once told a crowd bent on condemnation, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

We talk much about prayer. Perhaps praying for the wrong-doers is more effecient (and perhaps more pleasiing to God?) than all the rock throwing in the world.

what about justice being served? Our God is merciful, yet also perfectly just. I am no theologian but if God were only merciful, he would have forgiven Adam his sin and restored him to fullness in God's life. Yet God sent His Son because justice, as well as mercy needed to be served. My guess is that Jesus who is Judge will act both mercifully and justly when it comes to Senator Kennedy, as well as to the rest of us. Never cease praying since no one knows the hour.

...But rather the tone of this thread in general. And no, I don't think it was harsh, but rather accurate. Pouncing on Mrs. Scalia, implying that she was ignoring Ted Kennedy's record on Abortion...Calls to deny the man a Catholic Funeral off the cuff, and then dismissing any Final Confession or Reconciliation he might make as "not enough" because he won't have "authentic Catholic clergy" around him and that it will not be a "true confession" is abit asinine, and you can quote me on that one. I don't apologize whatsoever for calling those people out on what they said. They disagree, fine. I know we're all sinners, and I said that because I make no grand claim to holiness, but I also believe that we're all better than that. I'm sure many of those comments were made out of anger or frustration, and my defense of Ted Kennedy has obviously ruffled some feathers. I'm not defending his record on Abortion, or even saying he is a great guy...But I am defending his right to have a chance for Redemption up to the last moment...because I myself would want the same if I was in a world of hurt like Ted Kennedy. The world may not be fair...but I like to think that I am. I am not a party man, and while I am solidly Pro-Life, I don't always agree with the tactics and some of the sentiments expressed in some corners, which is as it should be. This will be my last word on the matter, I am not trying to make enemies or be a jerk...

Pax Tecum.

Thank you, David.

. . . and Pax Tecum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tpPetdNGOg

That was my comment, but you have distorted and misinterpreted it.

I said that it is highly unlikely that an authentically Catholic priest would ever get near Kennedy, and thus, it is highly unlikely that Kennedy would be challenged by any confessor to repent of his pro-abortion activism. I said nothing that resembles what you came up with.

Pro-abortion Catholic politicians never place themselves in a position where an authentically Catholic priest might create an embarrassing situation. During campaigns, their advance team always scopes out parishes to ensure that there will not be a pro-life homily, and where the priest can be relied upon to be delighted to give them Communion on camera.

Such regal isolation from all embarrassment, in which wealthy, powerful people are able to live, if they want to, is one of the great spiritual dangers of wealth and power.

I cited this situation as a tragedy for Ted Kennedy.

I think that what Elizabeth Scalia accomplished is to reveal the degree to which pro-life Catholics do NOT view Ted Kennedy as "one of us." That sentiment ended long ago. He has acted, not like a straying Catholic, but as a bitter, sworn enemy of the Catholic Church, for almost forty years. But I still predict that, such is the corruption in the hierarchy, Kennedy will be buried without any public acknowledgment of this reality.

Wish we had more priests like you in the Catholic Church (who speak the truth). It flabergasts me that our priests fail to speak out for life on the alter, at least very few of them do.. For that they will answer to God someday! I don't judge Kennedy the man but I DO judge his actions. It seems certain people on this post feel that we get some perverse pleasure in pointing out Kennedy's diabological actions. It's disappointing that so many here feel we are "ganging" up on him. I would say he's done more than "ruffle" feathers on his abortions stand like David W has indicated.. It's obvious that power & ambition were more important to him than the lives of innocent babies. HE has the choice of seeking redemption - that we here have no control over or wouldn't want to. We do have the RIGHT, though, & DUTY to speak out against his actions. Redemption is between him and his God and it's not for us here to judge which I feel we have not.

I just saw a story online about Ted Kennedy being scheduled for surgery at Duke University Hospital. He is quoted as saying that after the surgery he can hardly wait to get back to the U.S. Senate AND to working on getting Barack Obama elected the next president of the United States. Well, I guess there hasn't been a conversion yet. Hope springs eternal.......:)

"Eternal Father, we offer you the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world."

Dear Jesus, in your infinite mercy and wisdom, please allow Ted Kennedy to repent of his sins and to receive the Sacrament of the Sick while he is still in command of his earthly senses. Please help this Confession with repentance and reception of the Sacrament and Viatacum to be made public in order that the sin of abortion, being publicly renounced by so prominent a figure as Ted Kennedy, will experience a loosening of its grip on the world, and that abortion will be no more - anywhere on the face of the earth. Please God that Mary Jo rests in the arms of her merciful Savior.

I agree with Fr. Joseph.

I am 60 years old, inspired during my life by JFK (before we knew all the sordid details about his sex life), and firmly inspired by RFK, who I think is the only one in the Kennedy klan who might have lived up to the challenge of his heritage. Ted Kennedy has always been a disappointment, from cheating in law school to Chappaquidick (sp?), to divorce, abortion, stem cell issues, to publically defying the Catholic Church's positions. What a damaging role model for Catholics that are confused, less well-founded, and tempted by "dark side." An inspirational speaker, much like Barak Obama, but he appears to have been a Faustian figure working ultimately for dissolution, unhappiness, and despair.

I agree with forgiveness and praying for him, but let's not confuse the facts, or his thrust in American culture. Because of his family, he had a great opportunity for good and virtue, but he blew it.

Other than a passing reference to his ex-wife Joan and the demons she is fighting, why has no one mentioned Ted Kennedy's divorce and remarriage? Or was there an "annulment"?

Another sign of corruption in the Church: When information has been sought about the Kennedy "annulment" and the Kerry "annulment," the Archdiocese of Boston said this was PRIVATE information.

That is a lie. Let me repeat: That is a lie.

A decree of annulment is not secret. The whole point of a decree of annulment is to prevent the possible scandal of a second putative marriage.

Since the Archdiocese has lied in this way, Catholics are justified in presuming that Kennedy and Kerry's second putative marriages are adulterous.

This man has done more damage to this Country than nearly anyone else in Congress. I am sorry to say that I felt no pity for him when I heard he was sick. He is also a coward, morally and phycically.

'Let anyone without sin cast the first stone' We are ALL sinners in our own individual ways. His sins are between he & God and only God knows what is in his heart right now--the reality of death causes you to realize all your wrongs in a profound way & no one could possibly understand that until they are faced with it themselves. We shouldn't judge or gossip.

The man isn't even dead yet! Why is everyone making noise about his funeral?! I could see all this discussion AFTER the fact, but before? He will do what he wants, when he wants it and I'm sure it's all arranged already. Why do we bite and snipe each other over what someone else does/doesn't do? Everyone should just mind their own business, really. This is just gossip.


To The Anchoress: I think your article was beautifully written.

Because his funeral will be a big, splashy "Catholic" funeral.

The church will be filled to capacity with pro-abortion Catholics, who will receive Communion in full view of television cameras.

Thus, at Ted Kennedy's funeral, the Catholic Church (specifically Archbishop Wuerl and/or Archbishop O'Malley) will teach, loud and clear, that being pro-abortion is not sinful--which is already widely believed by millions of nominal Catholics.

Sometimes the truth can be jarring, especially in our moral relativist, touchy feely culture. Kennedy needs to publicly renounce his immoral positions, or else I don't see how the Catholic Church could give him a proper funeral. Just the thought of all his pro-abortion political friends lining up to receive Holy Communion is sickening too.

IF MORE CATHOLICS SPOKE OUT LIKE FATHER JOSEPH, ABORTION WOULD HAVE LONG BEEN OUTLAWED IN THIS COUNTRY.

Jesus really gave it to the pharisees and the rulers of the day.

WE MUST PRAY FOR OUR BISHOPS. MAY THEY NOT FLEE FROM THE WOLVES. MOST OF THE FIRST APOSTLES ABANDONED JESUS ON GOOD FRIDAY. MAY THOSE SAINTS NOW INTERCEDE FOR OUR BISHOPS AND RELIGIOUS SO THEY'LL HAVE THE COURAGE TO DEFEND JESUS AND HIS BRIDE, THE CHURCH, TODAY.

Treeoflifesword.com

This is a very interesting post that bring to the fore the dilemma of the American church in the face of the waywardness of some of its leading public figures. I am surprised though that there is a debate as (almost)everyone agrees on the issues.
-Kennedy, as a supporter of abortion and other anti-life policies is a source of immense public scandal and is rightly condenmed for that.
-Kennedy, as a human being and a child of God, is very much entitled to God's unfanthomable mercy as the rest of us are
-We a right to speak out against the scandals he represents especially as he remains unrepentant
-His repentance would be very a welcome development to the church and the country in general, not the least his soul
Clearly the disagreements are a bit more subtle. It is really a debate between those whose inclination is to turn a blind eye in the name of mercy and brotherhood and those who are "uncompromising" in calling for accountability. I suppose striking the balance can sometimes be difficult but I must say I lean a little to the side of the latter.
Our own personal and secret sins notwithstanding, I think that in cases of egregious scandal, the touchy-feely approach is often misguided. The gospels are really quite clear on this--love the sinner hate the sin is always the foremost principle, but remember that we bear responsibility for not calling our brothers out on their errors. WE are accountable not only for our own sins but for those of our brothers'. With due respect to Elizabeth, David and all the others who are for private prayer for the souls of public sinners, the sentiment is appreciated but I'm afraid it won't be enough in this case. I am yet to see, as some seem to allege, a post suggesting that he should be damned (being denied a funeral does not amount to damnation does it?). Thus, the allegations of being uncharitable seem a bit uncalled for.In fact what would be uncharitable is to somehow consign sinners entirely to the mercy of God, thus washing our hand of the duty of fraternal correction. As long as no one has called for their eternal damnation, Kennedy, like the rest of us, could do with the occasional rebuke. Jesus was very forgiving but it was never his style to gloss over sins. He never hesitated to give hosts, authorities, friends and enemies alike a good dressing-down for unrepented errors and his unique tenderness was reserved for the repentant. Inverting the lord's style just won't do.

Ted Kennedy's sins (the ones under discussion) have been PUBLIC. This is not gossip, and it is not "judging," in the sense that is condemned in the gospel.

It is a moral certainty, given their public records, that Archbishops Wuerl and/or O'Malley will permit a big, televised, celebrity-laden funeral, at which hordes of pro-abortion "Catholics" will receive Communion.

In other words, despite their occasional orthodox pronouncements, it is morally certain that wherever the funeral takes place, the local bishop, by permitting it, will teach that abortion is not a sin, that supporting abortion, vocally and with tax dollars, is not sinful.

If either bishop wanted my opinion, I would tell him: No matter what good you may think you have done for the Church over your career, it all amounts to nothing, less than nothing, because you joined hands with Ted Kennedy in teaching the nation that abortion is a "right," and supporting it is not sinful.

I find it amazing the number of persons who chastise others for commenting negatively on Uncle Teddy yet shout with glee when a priest or nun is charged with being a pedophile. Folks, we judge each other each and every day. We judge the woman who beats her kids or her husband, we judge the drug dealer, we judge the racist, etc. Why is evil Uncle Teddy excused for his evil ways?

Fr. Joseph is, in my opinion, NOT overstepping his bounds when making his comments. We have all heard the phrase hate the sin, not the sinner. However, this does not mean people are not responsible for their actions. Mr. Kennedy made no bones about being a Catholic and knowingly, through his own free will proposed legislation and voted for legistation that endorsed that which his faith considered EVIL, abortion. As well as the truly horrible partial birth abortion. Fr. Joseph has every right to condemn Mr. Kennedy for his actions during his lifetime especially when it includes a grave sin. He also has the right to be outraged over Mr. Kennedy receiving a full Catholic funeral, he is after all a human being and entitled to his opinion. But if you notice, Fr. Joseph never said Mr. Kennedy was in hell or has been condemned by God for his sins. Why? Because no one has the right to pass final judgement(even a priest)that is for God and God alone to decide. People need to realize that God's stance on judgement, like most things, has to do with our life after death. We judge people everyday through juries when they commit a crime or while placing a vote and so forth. These are temporary judgements made in and concerning this life, NOT a final judgement concerning the next. We do not know if Mr. Kennedy died in a state of mortal sin or whether he denounced and confessed his sins and did pennance. That is between him and God. We do know, as Catholics, we all have the ability, up until the day we die, to have our sins forgiven and enter heaven. Catholics need to START doing their own research to find out exactly where the church stands on the issues and how we are expected, both clergy and lay people, to act. Just because it seems out of character or feels wrong for a priest to write in such a frank manner does not mean he is going against his vocation. And to respond to Fr. Joseph, a priest and expert on scripture, by citing the bible is just plain arrogant. It shows nothing but ignorance when all a person can do is answer in a few lines with a twisted interpretaion of scripture that we have all heard before. I praise Father Joseph for his comments and pray that other Priest's are as coragious as he is. The fact that someone would state "The Kennedys are neither holier nor more wicked than other families..." is ridiculous and insulting to those of us who have not riddled our lives with contraversy and publically pitched aside church doctrine when we felt it necessary. We are judged equally in the eyes of God BUT we are not all equal in the eyes of God. I am a devout, practicing Catholic. I attend mass, pray the rosary, receive the sacraments and seek to live as God intends because I know through my own life experiences, which included much sin, that he truly is the way, the truth and the life. I do not state this out of pride but rather disgust in the authors statements. I pray for Mr. Kennedy and hope he saw the error of his ways before he died because what I know of hell, I do not want to see anyone go there and I pray God spares me when my time comes. May God have mercy on all our souls!

Catholicism deserve a full apology from the Pope himself. They also deserve to have their blessing restored, no matter what they did.

"The Kennedys are neither holier nor more wicked than other families"

I realize that we are all sinners and only Christ can truly judge us, but you do realize that you just said that an adulterous, abortion celebrating, murderer is "neither holier nor more wicked then any other Catholic.

The only difference between Kennedy and people doing life sentences is the almighty dollar.

Elizabeth Scalia, you say Ted Kennedy belongs to the Cathlic Church. Well, that seems to be one of the points in question.
The Code of Cannon Law states: Can. 1398 A person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae senteniae) excomunication.
What about those who make this possible? Our Senators and Representatives who vote in favor of laws making it possible for the abortion to take place, in effect opening the doors to the clinic for the person having the abortion.
The Chatechism of the Catholic Church states: 2271: "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:"
"You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish." There are footnotes to this quote referring to the Didache, Barnabe, Ad Diognetum and Tertulian.
Senator Kennedy throughout the years has consistently ignored these teachings and has been a co-conspirator in the deaths of 50,000,000 americans. In the United States alone, 1,300,000 human beings are killed every year, that,s 3561/day, a 911 every day thanks to our catholic leaders Kennedy, Kerry, Pellosi, Reed and the rest of the bunch. How many cures for cancer and other diseases were thrown into the trash because of these abortions. This is Senator Kennedys legacy.
To those who say that Senator Kennedy was a faithful catholic, please, don't insult my intelligence.
Cardinal Omally could have made a great statement in support of Life by denying the Senator a Catholic Mass.
Cardinal Omally has set the pro life movement back a thousand years.
The Church needs a John the Baptist today who is willing to give up his head in support of the truth.
I will end with a prayer card distributed in my church.
"In Our Dear Savior's dialogue with St. Catherine of Siena, He tells us that nearly all of the evils that are done by souls subject to the priests are the fault of bad pastors because had they corrected them....these evils would not have been done. God demands of us, says St. Catherine, that, instead of cursing such faithless priests and prelates,we earnestly pray for them,begging God's mercy and forgiveness, lest they be damned forever in hell. If all of us did this, God promises, "I will have mercy on my Spouse (the Church), reforming her with good and holy pastors then the good pastors will reform her, correcting by force,those under them"