February 09, 2010
 
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| Bethlehem University Student Deported to Gaza in Handcuffs and Blindfold |
| by Deal W. Hudson |
| 11/02/09 |
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Deal W. Hudson is the director of InsideCatholic.com and the author of Onward, Christian Soldiers: The Growing Political Power of Catholics and Evangelicals in the United States (Simon and Schuster). Readers have left 62 comments. Thanks Deal for shedding light on Betty Azzam's dreadful situation. For those wanting to support her via Facebook click here: http://tinyurl.com/ykb5wvx If that doesn't work type in: Let's Help Betty Azzam To Get Back To Bethlehem In the search box on Facebook. In Jesus, Mary, & Joseph, Tito  Written by Tito Edwards You know, I assume, that Ramallah was the source of most of the suicide bombing attacks on Israel in the past. Hence, the checkpoint into and out of Ramallah is probably the most closely watched and it rules the most strigently enforced. Further, I question why someone of Betty Azzam's education and intelligence would be so foolhardy as to attempt going to Ramallah, since she has been living in Bethelem illegally for several years. This all sounds like more of the general pile-on taking place today re Israel. And convenient that it follows on the heels of the unjust U.N. report of Israeli "war crimes." Written by Miriam Miriam, if Betty Azzam is not arrested and deported there is no story. For Israel, however, this becomes an opportunity to create some good news by showing compassion. Written by Deal Hudson While this woman may not technically be a Palestinian, her situaton does bring up the treatment of the Palestinians. There are several million Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank. What is Israel going to do with them? Deport them all? This is a problem that seeems beyond resolution, and while the Palestininas do not have clean hands, sooner or later, Israel is going to have to deal with them. Israel has held the trump card of unlimited and unquestioned American support for a long time, but this is starting to change. Sooner or later, the American people are going to get sick of the whole thing and start reviewing the so called "special relationship" which is really a one way street. The smarter people in AIPAC understand this, but many seem to think they can maintain the status quo forever. Written by Austin Austin is spot on here. While America generally has Israel's back, the support is slowly fading. Part of it is, and let's call a spade a spade here folks, "Americans" who put the Star of David over the Stars and Stripes. The likes of Pollard and Franklin and supporters of Israel who wage war against the religious heritage of most Americans have done their cause no help. While I don't think AIPAC stands for the American Iscariot Pollard Action Committee, I think it leaves a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths to see the likes of say Norman the Pod over at Commentary going out of his way to support his faith over in Israel while condemning people who see Mel Gibson's Passion. Also, in this time when Americans seem concerned about out of control government spending, we know what the hardworking American taxpayers have floated Israel for years. Uncle Sam is paying the piper-we need to be calling the tune. And if Israel does not like it, ok we take up our bat, our ball and our billions and go home. And the Star of David falls from the sky of nations in the blink of an eye. Written by Rob Miriam, the article states that she was going to a job interview Ramallah. Your comments are a perfect example of why more and more Americans are indeed getting fed up with America's relationship with Israel. To some people, Israel can simply do no wrong, no matter what, and deserves the sort of absolute unquestioned loyalty that most people don't even give their own home countries, let alone some foreign ally. We had a group of Palestinian Christians come speak at our Church, and theirs is a sad story. I certainly believe that Israel has a right to exist free from persecution by its Arab neighbors, but as Catholics we have brothers and sisters in Christ on the Palestinian "side" who deserve our support also. It's an incredibly sad and difficult situation in which frankly "not one among us is innocent." But to attack and insult this young woman who is trying to pursue a college degree at a Catholic university and was treated like an "enemy combatant" for her efforts is quite shameful. Written by Linus ...is a matter of public record. Israel has been belligerent towards the Vatican and Christian interests in general. Why do we continue to give them a pass? Written by D.B. Thank you Mr. Hudson for letting us know about Miss Azzam. There are many, many stories similar to hers. Why we western Christians think that the Israeli government is benign toward Christians and Christianity is quite inexplicable after hearing the facts. Let's keep her and all presecuted people in our prayers...and WRITE the State Department on her behalf. I just did. Written by Pammie But, of course, let’s wait for Israel to show some compassion by letting a young woman from Ramallah who’s a student at a university with a long history of being a hotbed of anti-Israel sentiment (and perhaps worse) come right back in to Bethlehem after breaking the laws put in place to safeguard Israelis against suicide bombers. Meanwhile, let’s consider this: “The Muslim Fatah-controlled authority in Judea and Samaria is encouraging a 'sharp demographic shift' in Bethlehem, where the Christian population went from a 60 percent majority in 1990 to a 40 percent minority in 2000, to about 15 percent of the city's total population today. It is estimated that, for the past seven years, more than one thousand Christians have been emigrating from the Bethlehem area annually and that only 10,000 to 13,000 Christians remain in the city. International human rights lawyer Justus Reid Weiner, who teaches at Hebrew University, told the Jerusalem Institute for Global Jewish Affairs that, under the PA-Fatah regime, Christian Arabs have been victims of frequent human rights abuses by Muslims. ‘There are many examples of intimidation, beatings, land theft, firebombing of churches and other Christian institutions, denial of employment, economic boycotts, torture, kidnapping, forced marriage, sexual harassment, and extortion,’ he said. PA officials are directly responsible for many of the attacks, and some Muslims who have converted to Christianity have been murdered.” More here: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127592 Written by Miriam Miriam ,please lets stick to the facts of this case and not bring in unrelated matters, that have yet to be proven and have nothing to do with this incident. You seem to be saying that since Moslems allegedly harass Christians , why can't Israelis do the same. It is a matter of history that Christians, Moslems and Jews had managed to live together for hundreds of years without the level of violence and hatred present in the past 70 years of the new regime.Christians are leaving Israel because they are second class citizens at best and without civil rights at worst. Written by Pammie So are you accusing this young woman of being a suicide bomber? "Long history of anti-Israel sentiment"? Such as? You don't need to remind anyone here about Muslim hostility towards Western Christians. Part of that hostility stems from our support of Israel. Comments like yours make people like me much more inclined to question that support. Maybe it's time we let you all settle your differences amongst yourselves. How would Israel like that? I know several American soldiers who have spent the last eight years fighting in the Middle-East who think it would be a great idea. Written by Linus "There are many examples of intimidation, beatings, land theft, firebombing of churches and other Christian institutions, denial of employment, economic boycotts, torture, kidnapping, forced marriage, sexual harassment, and extortion,’ he said. PA officials are directly responsible for many of the attacks, and some Muslims who have converted to Christianity have been murdered.” - Miriam Hi Miriam. Of course you are right, but for some people, pointing out human rights abuses isn't nearly as much fun unless bashing Jews is part of the equation. For those who are offended by my comment, let me save you the trouble of responding... I'll do it for you. To Mark: Neocons!!! Written by Mark Deal- I went to the web site you linked and wrote a note for the State Department- there didn't seem to be a category that applied to her case, so I just sent the note as a "Question for the State Department"- are there more contact links? Written by Tim Shipe For many years, AIPAC operated under the model of "you Americans must support us 100% no matter what, and never, never be critical of Israel, even in the slightest. We will accept nothing less." For many years, this model worked. However, the ground has changed under them (AIPAC), and now many Americans are growing weary of the whole Israeli-Palestinian mess. The old mode of threatening politicians who are not obedient enough and smearing private citizens who disagree as "anti-Semetic" is losing traction. This is causing AIPAC to become even more shrill, and threaten those Americans who are not obedient even more. AIPAC needs a new model: one based on a two state solution and American support that is real, but not so slavish. AIPAC has been very arrogant in the past, with an attitude towards American politicians of "jump when we tell you." The politicians are bought and paid for by AIPAC, thus totally gutless, but the citizens are starting to chafe under this very one sided relationship. Sooner or later, something is going to give. It would be smart of AIPAC to avoid being overtaken by events, and start treating the US with a little respect. Written by Austin This is a bit off topic, but since the Molsem treatment of Christian converts was brought up by Miriam, perhaps she would like to explain the attitude of the orthodox Israeli community towards Messianic Jews(those who live by Torah rules and believe in Jesus Christ). Also of the anti -missionary laws in force in Israel. Hasn't there been discussion of denying Jews who have converted to Chrisitanity Israeli citizenship although atheistic and agnostic Jews are welcomed without question? Just asking. Written by Pammie Deal Hudson wrote: In August 2005, Azzam left Gaza with a temporary travel permit allowing her to visit the West Bank. She did not return to Gaza until the Israeli military returned her forcibly on October 28. Azzam had taken the risk of not returning to Gaza knowing it was her only way to attend Bethlehem University, the only Catholic university on the West Bank. Writing to me from Gaza, Azzam was still quite shaken by her treatment at the checkpoint: "They didn't tell me anything and treated me like a criminal. They had no reason to blindfold and handcuff me." The fact that she was carrying a university ID verifying her status at Bethlehem University made no difference. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have a lot of respect for Mr. Hudson and take him at his word that Betty is a good person caught up in a miserable situation. However, a person who overstays their travel permit for more than four years has broken the law and is, in fact, a criminal. Therefore, handcuffs and a blindfold are appropriate precautions. (I've been arrested and handcuffed and agree with Betty that it is not pleasant.) Why? Because there is simply no way that Israeli law enforcement could -- at the time of her arrest -- distinguish her from other young women who have attempted (and in some instances succeeded) to wreak devastation on innocent citizens of Israel, Jew and Arab alike. Unfortunately, university IDs are not difficult to forge. Now, one may argue that the law Betty broke is an unjust one. Nonetheless, if one accepts the argument Dr. King made in Letter from a Birmingham Jail, she would still be liable for the consequence of breaking that law even if hers was an act of civil disobedience. King might say, especially if hers was an act of civil disobedience. No doubt everyone who's posted--whatever their views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict--is praying for her. I hope she can complete her education. Written by Jamie Hunt Of course I’m not saying that Betty Azzam is a potential suicide bomber. What I was trying to say is that Israel has the tough rules in place to guard against suicide bombers, but not that I thought she was one, or that she even sympathizes with them. I know this is probably in vain, but I urge everyone here to read what the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs has to say about Israel’s policies with regard to all this. They have posted detailed information <a href=“http://tinyurl.com/yhk37jy”>here</a>. Here’s the intro: “While there is no question that the Palestinian population - women and men alike - is suffering from the conflict, that suffering is a direct result of Palestinian terrorism aimed at innocent Israelis, and the need for Israel to protect its citizens from these abhorrent attacks. Under these circumstances, no other country would act differently in the face of such an evil campaign. While Israel's operations and policy are not immune from legitimate criticism, the context in which Israel's battle against terrorism takes place is a critical component to an accurate assessment of its result.” And further on: “One of the issues that most hampers the IDF in its fight against terror is the intentional blurring of distinctions between Palestinian terrorist groups and the innocent Palestinian population. Terror groups operate from within residential centers, in civilian dress, assimilating in the local population and taking refuge in public institutions. Terrorists exploit civic buildings, hospitals and ambulances, religious institutions and schools as covers for their activities.” Anyway, the page goes on to list the ways Israel is attempting to mitigate the suffering of the Palestinian people in light of the country’s security needs. Written by Miriam Pammie: Here’s what the Jews for Jesus website (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/israel) says about missionary work in Israel: “Our ministry in Israel consists of street evangelism, one on one visits, and special outreaches at national new age festivals which take place around the major Jewish holidays. Because Israelis are secure in their Jewish identity, they are less defensive when the subject of Jesus is brought up to them. But the obstacles to Gospel proclamation to Israelis are nonetheless formidable. They know almost nothing about Jesus and do not even know his correct name in Hebrew. The religious establishment is vehemently opposed to Jewish believers in Jesus and they often try to disrupt evangelistic endeavors.” So, no law against it, but plenty of ultra-orthodox opposition. Written by Miriam Miriam thank you for your link. May I suggest you look at this one (one of many) that refers to the anti missionary law? It is http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/08/israel.missionaries/ . Ms. Hunt surely the irony of Ms. Azzam's situation is not lost on you. She chose to stay out of trouble, get an education at a reputable Catholic university and she stills get legally kidnapped and returned to Gaza where access to food, water , electricity, education are controlled by the Israeli government and denied regularly. When all the laws are against one how can one ever win? Do you imagine an Israeli jew being treated in the same fashion over a visa problem? Handcuffed AND blindfolded. Do you really advocate treating visa violators and killers the same way as long as they are Palestinians? Now that she has been proven to be no threat, why is she not back at University? ![[smiley=think]](http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/components/com_jreactions/custom/templates/blog/smileys/smiley_think.gif) Written by Pammie I will definitely re-double my efforts to pray for Betty and that whole region in our world. The Palestinian / Israel situation is such a difficult one because of the hardness of heart on all sides. Israel is a purely Jewish state, which gives nobody else (Christians or Muslims, etc.) any governmental say. Non-Israelies are not given permits to fix their homes in Israel as well. Furthermore, Palestinian refugees have been left in a holding pattern where they are not allowed to re-patriate Israel and are not allowed to enter other countries of the middle east. When I spoke to a few friends I know who are Muslim Lebanese about this situation, they were adamant that Palestinians should not be allowed to live in Lebanon, even if they are Muslim, because they are not Lebanese. The hypocricy of these words were evident, because these ladies enjoy a life here in the US and are not refused residency because they are not American. They were denying others legitimacy in a foreign land that they themselves enjoy. Betty's sad situation personalizes the hardness of heart I witnessed during this conversation with my Lebanese friends and made me thankful to be American. We have to pray for them, as well as ourselves, so we don't end up in their shoes. Written by Christine AIPAC believes that they can command 100% obedience from the US indefinately. Perhaps they can in the short run, as they have done so for more than a few years, but I am not sure that this will work in the long run. The Muslim population of Gaza and the West Bank, along with the Palestinians in Israel proper, have a higher birthrate than the Jews. Many Israelis are growing weary of the constant state of war. Finally, many Americans are growing sick of the whole thing and are growing more bold in their statements about Israel. Sooner or later, Israel needs to work out some long term arrangement with the Palestinians. Yes, many of them are filthy terrorists, but....the reality is that AIPAC cannot command total obedience from the US forever, and an increasing percentage of Muslims under Israeli control spell trouble. Recognizing these realities and discussing them is not anti-semitism or being anti Israel. It is in fact, a legitimate attempt towards working in the direction of a long term solution. AIPAC can scream and threaten all they want, but until they wake up and recognize reality, they will run the risk of being overtaken by events. Written by Austin ... M(r). Hunt surely the irony of Ms. Azzam's situation is not lost on you. ... — PammieNo irony here. She broke the law. Those responsible for enforcing the law enforced it. Ask anyone in law enforcement: there is no way to tell how a person -- whether it be a petite woman or a 240-lb. man like myself -- will respond when detained. Therefore, handcuffs are necessary. In Israel, there is the further concern that the person being detained is a terrorist or associates with them and could reveal information about the law enforcement officials involved that could result in their being targeted. Therefore, hoods are necessary. She was returned to her home in Gaza. The conditions there are not material to her situation since it could be reasonably concluded that her returning to her family did not present a danger to her. Further, immigration enforcement in the US and the UK can be -- in similar circumstances -- similarly brusque. This gets back to the fact that, regardless of her good intentions, Ms. Azzam knowingly broke the law for as much as four years. We all hope that petitions on her behalf allow her to complete her education. Written by Jamie Hunt Ms. Hunt, the irony IS lost on you. When a black person in the US in the early 1800's stole food and ran from his master to avoid a life of slavery, you would defend his whipping for theft after he was caught? I don't think so, even though that was the law. The point is that when terrible injustice occurs, as in the case of the Gazians, does one turn to violence or to something more constructive? Don't you understand? She could not go to this Catholic University legally. When the palestinians kill their oppressors, they are condemned. When they try to improve their chances of finding gainful employment in order to live like human beings, there are such as you that condemn their efforts as "illegal" and give all your support to their masters. They simply won't ever be able to win with you or those who think the way that you do.I find that ironical.And sad. Written by Pammie M(r). Hunt, the irony IS lost on you. When a black person in the US in the early 1800's stole food and ran from his master to avoid a life of slavery, you would defend his whipping for theft after he was caught? ... — PammieThe past is a foreign country. I can't tell you what I would have done at that time and in those circumstances. I hope I would have joined with those who sought to free slaves and I hope I would have willingly borne the punishment for violating the law if caught. In any case, every modern country interested in its safety and preservation maintains control over its borders. Not a few enforce immigration laws with greater vigor than even Israel, the US, and the UK. Are Israel's immigration laws unjust? I don't know. They seem appropriate for a small country from whose neighbor young men and women have come to blow up its citizens--Jew and Arab--in buses and pizza parlors. However, if the laws are unjust, what Dr. King wrote in "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" in 1963 seems germane to Ms. Azzam's situation: " ... In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law. ..." Written by Jamie Hunt ...while I wouldn't go so far as to say that Israel is despicable like the South African Apartheid regime, they are certainly in a similiar demographic problem...a small minority cannot keep a growing majority hemmed in and in perpetual refuge status. Pro-Israel people may say, "Well why don't Arab countries take them in?" Even if they did, that still wouldn't solve the problem....those people want to go home. The Palestinians are descended from the Arab natives of the territory now Israel and are as native to that land as the Jews born there after 1948.. Yes, many of them chose to side with the Arab Armies who wanted to destroy Israel...many also did not, and ended up in the crossfire...and have lived this existence ever since. Israel must be a discriminatory state to continue existing...they have to keep Arabs second class because demographics would wipe them out. They have to make it hard for Christians because they don't want to have a Christian majority emerge. In short, for Israel to be Israel they have to exclude, control and keep the checkpoints up. Israel's enemies don't have to blow them up....all they have to do is keep having children, and wait. Time is on their side. I'm not saying Israel is all to blame for this mess, or that they are evil....what I'm saying is that because of their history they are in an increasingly untenable position. They can never be truly Cosmopolitan because they would cease to be a "Jewish State." They can never truly be an Open Society because they would cease to be a "Jewish State." It is sad, I honestly don't see a good way forward. Thoughts? Written by D.B. However, if the laws are unjust, what Dr. King wrote in "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" in 1963 seems germane to Ms. Azzam's situation: " ... In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law. ..." Based on some of the posts here, Ms. Azzam has succeeded in "arous(ing) the conscience of the community". No? Written by Rob H Ms. Hunt let me ask you frankly. Would MLK's nonviolence and pacificity tactics been successful in countries such as Soviet Russia , Communist China or Nazi Germany? The Mahatma's philosophy of peaceful resistance(from which MLK derived his philosophy) did the trick in British India because of the nature of the English people. They refused to shoot everyone. It only works with a Christian conscience, sadly missing in this situation. Would he have fared as well in say North Korea today? It's all well and good to expect other people to do without basic human rights, but we should not be surprised when they get tired of waiting.Ask the hundreds of illegally gaoled Palestinians, what has changed for them or their families while they have been patiently rotting away for the past 60 years. But then the more law abiding of us will not have the opportunity to criticise their efforts to escape the tyranny we have never experienced. Well not as of yet, that is. Written by Pammie ... Based on some of the posts here, Ms. Azzam has succeeded in "arous(ing) the conscience of the community". No? — Rob HAgreed. Borrowing again from King's "LFBJ": "... In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self purification; and direct action. ..." Thus far, the facts as presented by Mr. Hudson have been largely those related by Ms. Azzam, while commenter Miriam has cited Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs for another perspective. Is it possible to say whether an injustice exists in Ms. Azzam's case? More specifically, is the law which Ms. Azzam broke--which resulted in her being handcuffed, blindfolded, and returned to Gaza--a unjust law? Insofar as the law exists to allow innocent Israeli citizens and legal visitors of all nationalities to ride the bus and eat pizza with a reasonable expectation of not being blown up, it seems to be a just law. Exceptions to the law can and should be made, and in Ms. Azzam's case, I hope that will happen. Written by Jamie Hunt Hi DB, You put into words what I couldn't in my previous post. I agree with you, but I find it sad. I guess because I come from many generations of people who have moved from different parts of the world I wouldn't understand the idea of going back to a country that neither I nor my parents never lived. This was the situation with Israelis and is now the situation with the displaced Palestinians. The situation seems such that it will go from bad to worse, because although Israelis don't treat non-Jews in a manner that respects the fact that we are all children of God, Muslims have an even worse track record and do, as others have mentioned, lob rockets and indiscriminately kill. There is no way to reconcile a pre-meditated terrorist bombing of non-military personnel. We really need to pray for them because their situation will go from bad to worse. Written by Christine M(r). Hunt let me ask you frankly. Would MLK's nonviolence and pacificity tactics been successful in countries such as Soviet Russia , Communist China or Nazi Germany? The Mahatma's philosophy of peaceful resistance(from which MLK derived his philosophy) did the trick in British India because of the nature of the English people. ... — PammieThe premise of your question seems to be that Israel is somehow analogous to the three countries you cited. To the contrary, Israel is a robust democracy (exceedingly rare in that part of the world) and it would come as no surprise to find that Ms. Azzam has fervent supporters among Israeli Jews, much as their American co-religionists (recall Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner were murdered alongside James Cheney) were fervent supporters of civil rights for blacks in this country. As for the nature of the English people: I have a fine regard for their contributions to civilization. But I'm an American citizen because my forebears fled Ireland rather than suffer from the Brit's perverse, ineffectual response to the Great Famine of the 1840s. Written by Jamie Hunt When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds" From what I have read, there is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. If this is not accurate, would someone please correct me? I also found this interesting: Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for: “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”. Written by Mark So are you then saying that the United States must do exactly what AIPAC tells us to do, without question, without exception, without debate, from now until forever? Why do AIPAC supporers fear rational debate? They usually lapse into long winded descriptions of Arab and Palestinian atrocities, etc (which are true enough), but seem to feel that this is the end of the discussion, and that the citizens of the US should just keep their mouths shut and do what they tell us. Blind obedience to AIPAC is their only solution. Nothing lasts forever, and the blind obedience of the US to AIPAC is going to change, like it or not. Please address this issue: what is Israel going to do long term? What are they going to do when American obedience starts to erode? What is the Israeli plan to deal with the Palestinians long term? Please answer the questions without the usual diatribes about the Arabs. Written by Austin Austin, I don't know what they are going to do. I don't know what we are going to do. This seems to be an impossible situation. God seems to be our only recorse, so we should pray pray pray. Written by Christine ... Please address this issue: what is Israel going to do long term? What are they going to do when American obedience starts to erode? What is the Israeli plan to deal with the Palestinians long term? Please answer the questions without the usual diatribes about the Arabs. — AustinLong term? No idea. The old saying is that nations have interests, not friends. One could argue that having a democracy in that part of the world is in America's interest, and will be in the future. As long as that is the case, American support may ebb and flow, but it won't permanently erode whether AIPAC exists or not. Short term, perhaps Ms. Azzam's situation will prompt Israeli authorities to reconsider certain laws pertaining to immigration, starting with making it easier to for people like Ms. Azzam to get an education. With regard to the remark about diatribes, what follows is simply a recitation of fact about the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing in downtown Jerusalem on August 9, 2001, in which 15 civilians were killed and 130 wounded. It requires no great imagination to reflect on these facts to understand why Israel is mindful of its borders and why even a bright, young woman such as Ms. Azzam, who broke the law, would be considered a threat. "...The suicide bomber who died in the course of carrying out the attack was later identified to be Izz al-Din Shuheil al-Masri from the Palestinian West Bank town of Aqabah. Izz al-Masri was 22 at the time and the son of a successful restaurant owner, and from an affluent land-owning family. He was escorted to the restaurant by Ahlam Tamimi, a 20-year-old female university student and part-time journalist, who had disguised herself as a Jewish tourist for the occasion. Ahlam Tamimi was sentenced to 16 life terms. She later commented that "I am not sorry for what I did" and does not recognize Israel’s existence[6]. The person who constructed the explosives was a man named Abdallah Barghouti. For his part in this and a string of other attacks, in which 66 civilians were killed, he was handed down 67 life sentences in 30 November 2004[7]..." Source: Wikipedia, the Guardian, the Independent, et al Written by Jamie Hunt Ms Hunt it was predictable that the Irish famine would be brought up. It has nothing to do with the context of my argument.England in the instance cited did not kill Ghandi or his thousands of followers to maintain colonial power. Can we agree upon that? While you praise highly the "democracy " of Israel, the parents of Rachel Corrie may have a different take. Her pacificism ended under the crushing weight of an Israeli bulldozer whilst trying to nonviolently prevent Israeli collective punishment on a Gazian village. Let's think of where we have seen such governmental practices before.Oh yes, Nazi Germany(collective punishment) and Communist China (Bulldozers in the Square).Is Israel as bad as them? I don't think so but there are no degrees of dead as far as the dead and their relations are concerned. Funny how you will condemn one and not the other. Mark-what a dreary old argument! Unless you believe that the Holy Land was vacant since the departure of the Hebrews, how could you want to deny the people who lived there since the dignity of an identity? They are called Palestinians because that is the modern political identity they were given by the British. Who, by the way, were not known by that name until the last century. Before they were only English and Scots and Welsh. So what? Does that mean the British people didn't exist? Can I have the island and all their things because the political term "British" didn't exist until recently? To be clear-I think there are some wonderful jewish people in Israel who try to stand up for the helpless and the hopeless-Haaretz being one such organisation. They estimate at least 50% of the Gazian lately killed were non militants. When you both tell me you are willing to live under the tyrannical rules that many Palestinians live under, or better yet allow them access to your properties and livelihood in your country in order to relieve them of living in an Israeli "democracy", I will be more inclined to take your arguments seriously. The Israeli government would be extremely pleased as well. Its called a "twofer". Written by Pammie Eintein said, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler." Austin, trying to condense the situation in the Middle East and all of the ramifications it has on the rest of the world to "blind obedience of the US to AIPAC" is your prerogative, but hardly binding on the rest of us who are realistic enough to see the bigger picture. Besides, you've said previously that you really couldn't care less if Israel was wiped off the map. My question was "what would you do if Iran nuked Israel?" and your response was "I wouldn't do anything" You also said recently that you didn't believe that Iran would ever attack Israel because "fools don't put their hands in flames" ... apparently the countless Muslim suicide bombers didn't get that memo. While I appreciate your honesty and you know that I respect you, I think that your apathetic attitude and denial of reality disqualify you from being taken seriously on this issue. The greatest disgrace in my lifetime has been the Rwandan Genocide and the fact that the U.S. and the U.N. stood by and did nothing. I pray that doesn't happen again in Israel or anywhere else in the world ever again. Christine is right, the situation is desperate and requires a lot of prayers... and prudence. It should be remembered, however, when trying to discern the reality of the situation in the M.E. that if the Muslims put down their weapons, there would be no more violence and if the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel. Written by Mark Pammie, can you explain this to me? It's neither "dreary" nor "old"... it's very recent. "Holocaust kept out of Gaza school curriculum" Also, I appreciate your knowledge on the subject and would like to hear your solution to the problems in the Middle East. Thanks Written by Mark I never said that I could care less if Israelm is wiped off the map. I said that the security of Israel is not the responsibility of the United States. I stand by that comment. So are you saying that the US must do whatever Israel tells us to do? I canno agree with that premise. You say that you don't know what Israel should do long term. Well, I don't either, but I do know that the patience of many Americans is wearing thin and we need a major change in our policy in the Middle East. You need to realize that everything bad that happens in the world is not the responsibility of the United States. We cannot be world policeman. I do think that the blind obedience of the US toward AIPAC has put the Isaelis in a position of not having to be serious about peace. They know that we will always do what they say, no matter what. Seems like a one way relationship to me. By the way, what have they done for us lately? I cannot think of a single thing. Written by Austin Mark, the argument is as follows "Since there is really no such thing as a "Palestinian" there was no one from whom the European Zionists could take the land, it was empty and arid". I had a huge sort of discussion with the English journalist Peter Hitchens over the same thing quite some time ago. Believe me the argument is as old as the conflict and rather silly in my way of thinking.People exist whatever their political nomenclature.To say there are no differences within Arab cultures is as uninformed as to say there is no differences between English speaking cultures.I'm sure you don't believe that is true. My solution? I would like to see an international Holy Land where all three religions were afforded the same opportunities and protections. No one entity would have the power of life and death over another. There would be one law for all citizens. Equal access to the law would be guarenteed to all. Christians would have the assurance that their churches, monasteries and holy places would remain in their control, as would the others. The Church would be as respected as the Rabbinate. Not really complicated. In fact a bit like it was when the Ottomans ruled the region in the 19th century, only better.Before anyone tells me all the horrible Ottoman atrocities , I know. I am speaking in this very specific context. The alternative--well more of the same I think, forever and ever. Written by Pammie M(r). Hunt it was predictable that the Irish famine would be brought up. It has nothing to do with the context of my argument. England in the instance cited did not kill Ghandi or his thousands of followers to maintain colonial power. ... — PammieFor the record, the British exercised a hard hand in India at times. One such time was The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre in the northern Indian city of Amritsar where, on April 13, 1919, 90 British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted for 10 to 15 minutes, until they ran out of ammunition.[1] Official British Raj sources placed the fatalities at 379, and with 1100 wounded.[2] (Again, tip of the hat to Wikipedia) No, they did't kill Gandhi; the eyes of the world were upon them as they were not in Amritsar. Nor would Israel kill Ms. Azzam if she were to (after completing her degree) lead a non-violent campaign to change immigration law to permit more of her compatriots to get an education. Change this law peacefully, others may follow. She may be just the person to harness her passion with patience and get the job done. Rachel Corrie, on the other hand, seemed unable to harness her passion at all. Her death was a horrible accident, but no one can credibly argue that the Russian immigrant driving the Caterpillar D9R bulldozer intended to or was ordered to kill her. To compare this to the atrocity at Tienanmen Square is simply wrong. Written by Jamie Hunt Mr. Hunt your optimism regarding the Israelis has not a lot of precedence for those following the situation through the years. No doubt hope springs eternal from those who are removed from the day to day realities and need only read about them in the papers or watch on telly. All you have cited re the Brits is substantially correct. The main point being that nonviolence is successful only when the fellows with the guns aren't willing to kill everyone to prove their point, a conclusion you have pointedly ignored and failed to disprove. I do believe the Rachel Corrie story you tell is the Official Israeli Version. Some of us may be forgiven I expect, if we are not as certain of the source as you and can come, reasonably, to a different conclusion. Did you also believe there were WMD in Iraq a few years back? Written by Pammie Mark in reading over the comments I see that I was mistaken in what you asked me. You seem to be be concerned with the lack of Holcaust education in Gazian schools. First off you might want to read Norman Finklestein on the subject of the Holocaust, for a different perspective. Both of his parents were survivors. Secondly , what does that have to do with the subject at hand? Thirdly, when the Gazians' right and ability to attend school is contingent on Israeli largesse, it would seem sensible that the teachers would stick to the very basics when classes became possible. Only my opinion, since I think that's what you asked me, now that I reread your comment. Written by Pammie ...The main point being that nonviolence is successful only when the fellows with the guns aren't willing to kill everyone to prove their point, a conclusion you have pointedly ignored and failed to disprove. ... — PammieIf the remark in bold represents your assessment of Israel, its government, armed forces, or citizens, I disagree vehemently. Further, those who fought for civil rights in the United States were subject to blasts from firehoses, beating, lynching, shooting, and bombing. The threat of death was a constant presence. And yet they succeeded by responding non-violently. Ms. Azzam may have been treated brusquely by those responsible for enforcing immigration law in Israel (which is to say, those with front-line responsibility for protecting innocent lives in Israel from the likes of unrepentant murderers like university student Ahlam Tamimi), but she is most certainly alive and well by the account Mr. Hudson has given. Written by Jamie Hunt Alive and well... and confined to Gaza? Sporadic food, water, electricity .Few educational opportunities, little chance of employment, no medical facilities or supplies, not allowed to leave. Subject to endless search and seizure, collective punishment and part of an expendable population? This is well in your estimation? I think that rather says it all. God bless Mr. Hunt and may you and yours never have to suffer the treatment you so blithely seem to approve of for others. Written by Pammie "You seem to be be concerned with the lack of Holcaust education in Gazian schools." - Pammie I'm not concerned with the "lack" of any subjects taught in the Gaza schools. What I am concerned about is the blatant anti-semitic motivation behind Holocaust denial. "you might want to read Norman Finklestein on the subject of the Holocaust" - Pammie Finklestein? You mean DePaul's very own Holocaust denier and friend of Hezbollah? Are you going to suggest that we should read Louis Farrakhan next? Be careful Pammie, you are starting to let your guard down. "So are you saying that the US must do whatever Israel tells us to do" - Austin No, I'm saying that we all need to face reality and do what it takes to prevent a nuclear war in the M.E. The only thing worse than being the lone superpower in the world, is not being the lone superpower in the world. Of course Israel has faults that need to be corrected, but that doesn't mean we should turn our backs and leave them for the animals to devour. Also, I'm sorry if I was offensive in my comment to you. Written by Mark Have people forgot that there is an illegal occupation taking place in the Holy Land? that 10 Palestinians have been killed for each Israeli who died? that Betty was willing to study in her own homeland, with even Israel recognizing in Oslo (1993) that the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are one single territorial unit? We Christians in the Holy Land are here to stay and to exist, I must go to confession for what I though when I read someone saying that she was "illegal" in her own homeland... so now a native Christian of the Holy Land is illegal on her own occupied territory and a Russian or Ethiopian settler is "legal" managing an illegal checkpoint? are there Christian Zionists writting here? do you know what International Law is about? And for all the people concerned with suicide attacks, let me remind you that the first one was in 1996, many years after the occupation started and even more years after two thirds of the Palestinian people (including almost 50% of the Christians of the Holy Land) were forced to leave or prevented from returning. Regards from the Holy Land. Written by Khader No sane peson wants a nuclear war in the middle east. We all need to work towards peace, and that includes the US, Israel and the Arabs. The US cannot force a peace settlement on the Israelis and Arabs, we can facilitate, but the Israelis and Atabs must both commit to a peaceful, long term solution. Some arrangement must be made for the Palestinians: that would probably be a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. The Israelis must stop the settlements in the West Bank and the Palestinians must renounce terrorism and actually mean it. We, the United States cannot force this on Israel and the Arabs. They must want to do it. They must both want peace. Unfortunately, the Palestinians do not seem to want peace, and the Isaelis seem lukewarm on it as well. You say we cannot let Israel "be devoured by the animals." Yes, this is true, however, this does not translate into blind obedience to the Israeli hard liners. We must have the leverage of cutting aid to Israel if they persist in additional settlements. This is not 'anti-semitism" it is trying to get them to bend a little. The Palestinians have dropped the ball badly with terrorism, firing rockets into Israel from Gaza, etc. They need an attitude adjustment too. Perhaps the Egyptians can help here? I don't have a solution for lasting peace in the middle east, but it will never be achieved, unless the Palestinians and Israelis both genuinely want peace. The US cannot "impose" peace on them, "Superpower" or not. Written by Austin "Devoured by the animals"? There is certainly no prejudice here is there? But nevermind-it's an acceptable prejudice, one that you are both quite comfortable with. Mark this is not a discussion about the holocaust. What guard are you talking about? Mr. Finklestein's parents were both survivors. If you read his books, instead of repeating what you have heard elsewhere, you could never say(truthfully) what you did or imply that I was complicit. Not very nice or accurate.But it is typical in the attempt to deflect criticism from Israel's bad deeds, to mention holocaust,holocaust denial, antisemitism(Louis Farakhan i.e.) in order to hijack the conversation and attempt to taint anyone who doesn't agree with your worldview. Mark we know you are a self identified neocon and we know the holocaust is very important to you. We know you think Arabs are animals. May we also know what you think about the denial of an education to this young girl, which after all was the topic under discussion? Should not even the people you refer to as "animals" have some sort of way to lawfully earn their bread? Please stick to the subject at hand. Written by Pammie The Holocaust is not the unanswerable point it used to be and to be blunt I blame a large segment of Mark's fellow neocons for it. Just read any thing in "Commentary" by Norman the Pod and his son JPod (we really need to be calling neocons, neptocons-Bill son of Trotsykite Irv, Jonah son of Lucianne) on Pius XII. While some neocons (J. Bottum and the late Father Neuhaus come to mind) disagreed and countered the odious Commentary arguments with facts, it did leave a bad taste in my mouth on the neocons in general. When Commentary and Marty Peretz and TNR started predicting a new Holocaust with blood in the streets over the Mel Gibson film, I had given up on even listening to them. They had cried wolf too many times. Ah but Saddam is the new Hitler. Wait, no Iran, new Hitler. In the meantime, the Holy Father and the late John Paul the Great made their thoughts on American involvement in the Middle East fairly clear. It was a disgrace to see Catholic neocons like Michael Novak and Father Neuhuas and George Weigel place neoconservative thought over the Church (and to be blunt, the GOP over GOD). In the meantime, I think we should be very cautious about cheerleading for one side or the other in the Middle East. The vast majority of the people of Israel reject God. So do do the Muslims. There will be no peace in the region since most of the people in the region are infidels and reject Jesus. Want peace in the Middle East? Bring back Urban II. Written by Rob Most of the people posting here have the advantage of pontificating on the problems you are going through from the comfort of our sofas, remotes by our sides. We have never been on the wrong side of an uzzi wondering (and praying) the soldier on the trigger side was having a nice day.It is easy for us to consign other people to a way of life unthinkable for ourselves or our families. We have legal protection from frivolous search and seizure,and may keep our property in most cases, even if someone else should want it. The government doesn't move in our neighborhoods and block off our access to jobs and grocery stores, friends and neighbors. The police don't come and blow up our houses and put us on the street when a relation or neighbor is caught in criminal activity. We are not the victims of collective punishment.We have access to schools and medical facilities . I'm not sure why so many of us think that you and all the people of the Holy Land should not have the same quality of life or that this way of life is just for us and jewish people. Please pray for us, our hardness of heart and I will continue to pray for you and all suffering from discrimination, prejudice and hatred. Written by Pammie Nice try Pammie. You've exposed yourself as a Holocaust denier and now think that the best defense is a good offense. I (as you know) do not believe that "Arabs" are animals. That wasn't even a good effort. I do believe that much like those who did the dirty work for Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and those responsible for approx. 800,000 murders in Rwanda over a hundred day period... that MUSLIM TERRORISTS are animals and that Amadinejad is a Muslim terrorist. Here are some quotes from the Muslim Hitler, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: April 22, 2009 "Don't be afraid of those Zionists. They are on the verge of death. Their time has passed." September 18, 2008 "The Holocaust is a lie and the real Holocaust is happening to the Palestinians." "The Zionist regime (Israel) is going towards its final collapse after 60 years of aggression. Our nation has no problem with other nations, but as far the Zionist regime is concerned, we do not believe in an Israeli government or an Israeli nation." May 8, 2008 "Those who think they can revive the stinking corpse of the usurping and fake Israeli regime by throwing a birthday party are seriously mistaken." January 30, 2008 "I warn you to abandon the filthy Zionist entity, which has reached the end of the line." November 27, 2007 "It is impossible that the Zionist regime will survive. Collapse is in the nature of this regime August 28, 2007 "Zionists are people without any religion. They are lying about being Jewish" August 18, 2007 "The Zionist regime is the flag bearer of violation and occupation and this regime is the flag of Satan" February 28, 2007 "The Zionists are the true manifestation of Satan" November 13, 2006 "Israel is destined for destruction and will soon disappear" October 26, 2005 "Israel must be wiped off the map" It appears that some people are using the logic that Israel only exists because of the Holocaust. Therefore, if the world could be convinced that the Holocaust is merely a fabrication, then it would be justifiable to eliminate Israel... how brilliant! By the way, I'm really happy that Christie beat Corzine in NJ ... does that mean I have to turn in my neocon membership card? Just curious Pammie, do you believe that George W. Bush and the Jews were behind 9-11? Written by Mark Mark I do not know anything about you other than what you write. You used the term "animals" without qualifiers.I ask you to refer to the Rules of Comments #1, #2, #4. This ISN'T about the holocaust. This ISN'T about Iran. Come to think of it, maybe the most important lesson that we can learn from the events of The Holocaust (or any attempt at racial cleansing) is that it is quite dangerous to dehumanize anyone. Demonizing anyone never, ever turns out well. Even though we dislike them and what they do. Calling anyone an animal might fall a bit short of having learned that key lesson. Go back and read what you wrote about the Palestinians. "No culture, indistinguishable, no language etc."Pure ignorant nonsense. Palestine is the birthplace of your Saviour. He spoke Aramaic. The first Christians, the first believers were there.Where and how did all those people disappear? Don't you even have any feeling for Holy Land Christians,trying so hard to hold on? Are you aware that they exist? You have yet to comment on this girl's bad situation, the topic which IS up for discussion, but instead have used this forum as an opportunity to disparage those who disagree with your passion for the government of Israel. You and those who think as you do can prove the sincerity of your beliefs when you donate your house and property to one of the many immigrants from south of the US border, give up your right to due process and all the other rights you now enjoy. After all the poor Mexicans have a right to be secure and safe from drug cartels. Why not in your house? Then go live in a homeless shelter for 50 years. You will then have more moral authority than you have at present to demand the same of other people. It is WRONG to demand of others what you are not willing to do yourself. Mark I am pleased to satisfy your curiosity:I will believe in the conspiracy theories of 9/11 when you find those WMD in Iraq. Happy hunting! Written by Pammie I understand the banter between all parties here. As I have written before, this seems like a no win situation. Do any of you think that Christians, such as Betty, would be given a better life by Muslim rulers? The Quran calls Jews animals and offers a terrible life for Christians (check out the way they are treated in other countries with Islamic governments). The Israeli government did apologize to her. I know that it would have been better that this never happened, but I don't think that she would have received such thoughtful treatment from other governments in the region, specifically because she is Christian. Written by Christine If you are asking me these questions Christine, I can tell you from experience that the term "moslem governments" is about as useful as asking about "christian governments". Some Molesm countries are alot of fun to live in and visit. Some are awful. Some treat Christians well and some don't. It is a mistake to assume that every Moslem country ,evey moslem culture is the same. The Israeli government wasn't all that nice to our Holy Father. He wanted to visit his people in Gaza and was not allowed. Why? If you want to compare religious scriptures, the Talmud has some very bad things to say about Our Lord, His Mother, and nonjews.Some Jews have a mock name in use today in order to avoid even saying the name of Jesus. Moslems do believe in Jesus, but not as the son of God. They also honor His Mother. I had not heard about the apology,and I am very happy for Ms. Azzam.Can she return to University? Although I did not bring it up before, I don't think any of the men I have been debating with can really understand the sheer terror of a woman being handcuffed and blindfolded and driven off in a car by strange men. Awful!! Written by Pammie In the Koran, Jews are called apes and pigs and Christians must pay tribute. People are to be killed if they do not convert. This is in your book. I know that God is indeed greater, and that is why people do not do all of the things prescribed in the Koran, otherwise This is what the Koran ascribes to Zimmis (Christians). Jizya is a financial penalty. "...to spare the blood (of the Zimmis), to be a symbol of humiliation of the infidels and as an insult and punishment to them, and as the Shafi`ites indicate, the Jizya is offered in exchange for residing in an Islamic country." Thus Ibn Qayyim adds, "Since the entire religion belongs to God, it aims at humiliating ungodliness and its followers, and insulting them. Imposing the Jizya on the followers of ungodliness and oppressing them is required by God's religion. The Qur'anic text hints at this meaning when it says: `until they give the tribute by force with humiliation.' (Qur'an 9:29). What contradicts this is leaving the infidels to enjoy their might and practice their religion as they wish so that they would have power and authority." Sorry, but by the jist of your holy book, all of us on this website would be out of luck and subject to a long list of subjugations. Written by Christine Quote(56) Islamic States and Practice of Christian Religion - Sounds worse November 04th, 2009 | 5:53pm Muslims believe that the Zimmis (Christians) are Mushrikun (polytheists) for they see the belief in the Trinity as belief in three gods. Islam is the only true religion, they claim. Therefore, to protect Muslims from corruption, especially against the unforgivable sin of shirk (polytheism), its practice is forbidden among Muslims, because it is considered the greatest abomination. When Christians practice it publicly, it becomes an enticement and exhortation to apostasy. It is significant here to notice that according to Muraghi, Zimmis and infidels are polytheists and therefore, must have the same treatment. According to Muslim jurists, the following legal ordinances must be enforced on Zimmis (Christians and Jews alike) who reside among Muslims: 1) Zimmis are not allowed to build new churches, temples, or synagogues. They are allowed to renovate old churches or houses of worship provided they do not allow to add any new construction. "Old churches" are those which existed prior to Islamic conquests and are included in a peace accord by Muslims. Construction of any church, temple, or synagogue in the Arab Peninsula (Saudi Arabia) is prohibited. It is the land of the Prophet and only Islam should prevail there. Yet, Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer. 2) Zimmis are not allowed to pray or read their sacred books out loud at home or in churches, lest Muslims hear their prayers. 3) Zimmis are not allowed to print their religious books or sell them in public places and markets. They are allowed to publish and sell them among their own people, in their churches and temples. 4) Zimmis are not allowed to install the cross on their houses or churches since it is a symbol of infidelity. 5) Zimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines. 6) Zimmis are not allowed to congregate in the streets during their religious festivals; rather, each must quietly make his way to his church or temple. 7) Zimmis are not allowed to join the army unless there is indispensable need for them in which case they are not allowed to assume leadership positions but are considered mercenaries. Mawdudi, who is a Hanifite, expresses a more generous opinion toward Christians. He said: "In their own towns and cities they are allowed to do so (practice their religion) with the fullest freedom. In purely Muslim areas, however, an Islamic government has full discretion to put such restrictions on their practices as it deems necessary." Written by Christine An update on Betty Azzam... Posted on November 04, 2009, 3:01 PM | Irene Lagan Earlier this week, Deal wrote about a Bethlehem University student, Betty Azzam, who was bound, blindfolded, detained by the Israeli military, and finally left off in Gaza. Ms. Azzam is a 21 year old Christian woman, born in Kuwait, who was finishing her last year of university. According to the military, she has no right to be in the West Bank -- indeed, no right to be anywhere but Gaza. It does not matter that she is a student, has never been accused of a crime, and is by all counts a responsible young woman seeking an education and employment. All that matters is that she is from Gaza. When Brother Jack Curran, the vice president of Development at Bethlehem Unversity spoke with Vatican Radio last Friday, he said it was the first time a student has ever been deported simply for having a passport from Gaza. Yesterday, the lawyers at Gisha were informed that the state of Israel claims that Berlanty has no right to be at Bethlehem University, or in the West Bank at all. However, Azzam did not need a permit to remain in the West Bank after entering, and no such documentation existed in 2005, so she could hardly have requested it. She only needed the Israeli permit to cross through Israel from Gaza to the West Bank, and she had that. In their response to the court, Israeli state representatives admitted that a "mistake" was made in removing Azzam. Apparently, orders were given by the legal adviser's office not to do it... and yet it was done anyway. Despite all of this, they still refuse to return her to her studies at Bethlehem University. Written by Christine Sorry I keep writing but I know of no Christian states, besides the Vatican, and there are several Muslim states. Their human rights records are well known. Violations of human rights in countries with a large amount of Christians ususally stem from the governement or its people committing sins against the Christian faith. Documented violations of human rights in Muslim Countries stem from the carrying out of Sharia Law. Pammie, I am sure that you were treated well in the Muslim countries you visited. You are Muslim. Written by Christine Sorry my dear,but you're barking up the wrong tree on this one. I'm an old RC, of the latin variety. I don't defend any religion but my own. I debate on the Holy Land because I feel sorry for those who cannot help themselves and whose predicament has been so mischaracterised in the American media for many, many years. I've traveled a bit, lived in foreign countries and the US. I read alot from many sources, particularly those I don't necessarily agree with. I have friends and relations all over the world, a few who are working in Moslem countries, so I do have a bit of firsthand experience in the things we are discussing. No expert. I actually HAVE been on the wrong end of an uzzi, which gives one wonderful empathy for others facing the same things on a daily basis! For a taste of how some jewish people feel about us and their interpretation of judaism try this link: http://www.frumteens.com/ I should think you may find it interesting since you are interested in islam. It is a jewish site, so no biased, outlandish info.Cheers! Written by Pammie Hi Pammie, Trust me, I know about how many Jews feel about Christians. I have supported the fact that Betty was treated poorly and I tend to be the person in the room that does not defend the state of Israel come hell or high water; but you have to understand that the options there are not good for anyone, and unless we all pray for them, they stand a good chance of slipping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Jews may not like us, but their very existance is not based on the killing and/or subjugation of all non-Jews. Unfortunately, Islam is the predominant religion in the region and its interpretation calls for great sinfullness from there adherents. God's tender mercy gives them the knowledge of right from wrong, so many do not follow what is in their holy texts, but unfortunately, the middle east is becoming a more dangerous place because of religiously sanctioned evil. For more information on Islam, as well as a great translation of the Quran, try www.jihadwatch.org or Father Zakaria's website. Father Zakaria's website is written mainly in Arabic, but I hear from sources that this is the best part of his site. I will be praying for your family and friends that live in the middle east. ![[smiley=happy]](http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/components/com_jreactions/custom/templates/blog/smileys/smiley_happy.gif) Written by Christine Christine,thank you for the update on Ms. Azzam. It is much appreciated.I quite agree with one of the earlier posters that the conflict in the Holy Land is not primarily religious in nature. It is mostly about power and money and profit. The majority of the people coming to Israel(other than from the US) seem to have no interest in ANY religion. Yes, some mullahs will use the conflict to increase their insidious influence with weary and desperate people. Just as some rabbis will incite their followers to murderous hatred and further conquest. All for power, prestige and land. Christians are generally caught in the crossfire, and do their best to try and survive.Where indeed is our modern day Urban II? One of the popes (can't think who) said "Give me an army saying the rosary and I will conquer the world." I would like to be able to read the texts you suggested but I'm afraid my spoken arabic lends itself solely to the souk. I do thank you for your prayers on behalf of my relations. It is to be hoped that they will be transferred rather sooner than later as one or two of them are a bit long in tooth to be gadding about so far from home. Many prayers, rosaries and sacrifices are needed to bring good changes in the Holy Land and the rest of the world.May Christ, the Hope of the World, reign in all hearts. Written by Pammie We Palestinians, like the jews, do embrace education as an asset to bring hope and succeed in our lives. Let Betty get back to Bethlehem University now. My Jewish friends are appalled to Israel's actions. Wish you well, Betty, from Melbourne Australia. Written by Hani |
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